# docs_fts_content

c1: EFTA00009428
c2: DataSet 7
c3: VOL00007
c4: DataSet 7/VOL00007/IMAGES/0001/EFTA00009428.pdf
c6: pdf
c7: images
c0:
=== Page 1 ===
ELECTRONIC COURT REPORTING WITNESS LOG
STATE V.
CASE NO.
Page
/
of /
CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN INVESTIGATION
ASA: LANNA BELOHLAVEK
DATE
ST
WITNESS
DIRECT
CROSS
REDIRECT
RE-CROSS
REDIRECT
RE-CROSS
END
TTL
or
CONTINUED
CONTINUED
DFS
7/19/06
TT
DET
9:14:18
10:00:28
11:32:08
9:20:47
10:58:28
11:34:14
7/19/06
IT
11:11:15
11:31:32
7/19/06
IT:
: :
:
7/19/06
IT
9:21:04
10:00:00
7/19/06
#
11:34:39
11:54:42
7/19/06
IT
11:56:34
12:14:56
CONTINUING
INVESTISATION
BREVIEW OF
GRAND
Jury
DIRECTIVES DATED
4/25/06
-ASA:
MARY ANN
DUSSAN
7/19/06
IT
1:17:22
1:39:51
B: Bench Conference
Defense Attorney[s]:
*: Motion to Strike
Asst. State Atty[s]: LANNA BELOHLAVER MARY ANN DUSGAN
Forms/Witness Log 2005
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Page I of 11
CONFIDENTIAL
EFTA00009428

=== Page 2 ===
Page 7/19/06
Grand Tury
children Investigation
T:Kanna Bloreaver
9:14:12
on record
9:14:18
II direct (det
)
15:05
when became muslued in case
15.29
how case came to P.B.P.D.
16:04
what
thought was going on
16:43
17.16
and saw VAL money w/man from Palm Benck
17.37
where
was interviewed
18.09
what
said initially
18.56
what
told
about goingto the house
19:45
20:25
man identified as Epatein, Jeffrey
said ske was over 18
921.04 II direct (
)
22.20
age E
22.29
was
23.30 new knows
24:02
24:12 new met
25:20
said wit would meet Joffrey
26:42
told asst. lady art was 18
29:15
Jeffrey's full name
29:23
where was Jeffreys house
30:02
went to backdoor
30:18
Feffrey E asst lady came to back door
31:13
asst la dy walked wit upthe states
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Page 2 of 11
EFTA00009429

=== Page 3 ===
Page 2 7/19/06
direct (cont )
9:32 19
lady told wit to keep bra parties ox
33:10
Feffrey layed dewn on his belly
33:15
Jeffrey's description
34:05
wit was Rind of hesetant
35.09
told Jeffrey she was 18
35:38
36:08
gave Jeffrey a message
36:20
asst. lady asked witto undress
37:36
wrt's bare buttoy touching better
38:11
asked to
38.37*
39.10
suffery on his back
40.13
where did Octtren
40:36 aiffrey
42.00 of
42.12
Qiffrey gave her $300.
43.19
4358
was scare about telling det about
who was downstairs
44:19
got money too maybe # 300
44:57 discussed W
what happened
46:17 did
will discussed about doing it again
47.08 the wit did not go back
47:22* made controlled call to
48:22* told
49:15 got
w,
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CONFIDENTIAL
Page 3 of 11
EFTA00009430

=== Page 4 ===
Page 3 7/19/06
T direct (cont. )
9:50.13 why lied to asst. principal
50.53 west principal called wits ste smother
52:00 told mom she was
52:38
52.58 has Misspace site act.
53.55 document skownto wit
54.40 survey addressed
55.11 dad took her to get
55.47 did
56.02 put income as $250,000.
9:57.03 gury a
57.55 Jury Q:
58.24 III as with aware it was a crime
58.45 They O:
59:02 Jury &:
59:17 away Q:
10:00:00 off record
10:00:24 one record
0:00.28 TT direct (det.
cont...
01:30 what found in Jeffreys house carbace
02:43 controlled mills made by
03:17
2 girls identified
03:42 how old girls were
04:05 9/21/05 trash pulled from Jeffrey's house
05.03 what found in trash pulled
05.20 name of girls
05:43 10/3/05 trash pulled from Peffrey's house
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CONFIDENTIAL
Page 4 of 11
EFTA00009431

=== Page 5 ===
Page 4. 7/19/06
TT direct (det
10:07:50 when talked to
08:48 what
seed
09:23 offreys aset's name
10:27 new
met people that led her to Jeffrey
11:50
11:56
who
took to Jiffrey's house
13:10
said she was like Heidi Flice
14:05
was paid $200 lucky time she brought a girl
14:37 got statement from
15:30 what additional things did
paid happened
16:28
how many times
how much Jobbey paid
went Infreys house
17:13
18:05
when L.D.
18:30
said she went to Infreyshouse
hundreds oftime
19:20 how
described first time she went to
Jeffrey's house
21:03
for said Epstein
23:30* Jeffrey introduced his other asst,
24:04
26:00
described placed Descression afsex acts
head on winned table
27.43 usked
28:10 who in
what sho did w/all that money
28:54
and she was taken to Jeffrey's house
29:24
was 17 at the time
MM16-31E-MM-108062-GJ-1A SEC 003 SER 1A9-1A16-000268
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CONFIDENTIAL
Page 5 of 11
EFTA00009432

=== Page 6 ===
Page 5 7/19/06
10:30:47
said sex acts become more involved
31.05* did
tell Jeffrey she was 17
31:5 St did any ares tell Jeffrey they were under 18
32:43 now much was Christmas bonus
33:00
33.34 information given by
34.22
Rept notes (like a journal
35.50 when flowers taken to
36.22 37.28 no Cormal training ay girls for messages
relationskin) w/ offrey
38.26 did missages by
go beyond
41:15 how girls knew each other
41.42* abtained search warrant.,for Jeffreys home
42.19 who was present w, /wit when served warrant
42.58 item found Rusun as twin torpedo
43.20 where was item found
43.59 any serual devices found fit desc given by girls
44:24 qury I:
45.03 Jury Q:
45.35 Jury Q:
45.56 Jury a
47.02 II I:
present occupation
47.18 They Q: did girl Day no when foffrey
her
48.12 They Q.
49:10 Mry Q: who was
Jeffrey
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CONFIDENTIAL
Page 6 of 11
EFTA00009433

=== Page 7 ===
Page 6 7/19/06
Inderect (cont. )
10:50:00 Jury a
50.44 Twry a:
51:04 Jury Q:
51:50 Tway Q:
52.12 TII who made direct appointments
52:29 Jury d:
52.48 July d:
53.20 Tway A
53.52 Tway Q:
54.52 aury Q:
55.12 They Q: Epeteins age
5547
Way a:
56,40 TT Q
57.32 Twey Q:
58.13 Jury Q:
0:58.28 aff record
11:11:10 on record
11:11:15 II direct (
PBPD
16:02 where wend on Oct.
address
16:41 * now house was entered
18:46 det.
read search warkant aloud
:
occupants outsid of house
19:38 residence description
20:43 wit steps down from stand
20.46 with describes diagram
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Page 7 of 11
EFTA00009434

=== Page 8 ===
Page 7 7/19/06
Tidirect(cont..)!
11:23:22 found missage table
23:31 11 " oils
24:10 any missage oils found where missage table was
25.46 wit retakes stand
25.58 did any afer. find a purple adrator
27:20 Jury Q:
28:42
TT a
29:00
Jury a
29.45
Tury a
29:53 TWEY Q:
30:40 Jury a
1131.32 aff record
11:32:07 on Record
11:32:08 IT direct (det
cant
3210 who was in home when warrant served
33.08 where was twin torpedo found
34.03 Mry Q
11:32:06 on record
1134.29 trdibect (
35.48 how knows
36:36
introduced wit to Jeffrey
37:45 when went to Joffrey's home lot time
38.08 was 16 yes old Junior year
38.39 wit describes first time went to Jeffrey's house
39:20 Jeffrey gave her # 200,
MM16-31E-MM-108062-GJ-1A SEC 003 SER 1A9-1A16-000271
3501.055-083
CONFIDENTIAL
Page 8 of 11
EFTA00009435

=== Page 9 ===
Page 8 7/19/06
IT direct (cord...)
11:40.15 40.48 how many times went to Icffrey's home
how missages progressed
41:20* last time
how old was wit
42:47 told Iffrey Xhe was 17
43:10 Jeffrey
43.40 how much was wrt paid
44.27 Jextrey gave her digital camera
44:56
was in room withom one time
45.46 Ferfrey asked with to touck
47.07 dees with want Jeffrey to be charged
47.30* does father know about situation
47.58
48:59 TWEY a how old was with where
how muck money did wit get during allthat time
occurred
50:34 Tury Q: why didn't ask Jeffrey to stop
52.07 qury Q:
5218 Jury Q:
52.32 They O:
52.55 Jury a
53.29 Jury Q:
154.42 aff record
155:32 on record
156.34 II direct (
57.40 police Ace port on
59:08
2:01:05 art has looked at
(Myspace, com site
02:03 what is
web name
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3501.055-083
CONFIDENTIAL
Page 9 of 11
EFTA00009436

=== Page 10 ===
Page 9 7/19/06
redirect (cont...)
12:02:49 pleator 101
spour to wit
03:36
04:39 wit reads from exhibit C - aloud
07:26 does
make references to wanting to be famous
08:29 July Q:
08:57 II I
09:05 alley a what was date that she said she
wanted to be famous
12:10:10 Twey a
10:29 They Q:
11:02 Jury Q:
12:30 Jury Q:
13:20 qury Q:
13.54 Tury Q:
14:15 They Q:
14:34 Jury a:
1214.56 off record
on record
S.A.C
12.51.45 Tedirect
come
51.46 IT R. what is
25234 aff record
continuing investigation review of Grand May Directives
dated 4/25/06 - ASA: Mary aar Duggare
1:17:17 on record
1:17:22 II direct
MM16-31E-MM-108062-GJ-1A SEC 003 SER 1A9-1A16-000273
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CONFIDENTIAL
Page 10 of 11
EFTA00009437

=== Page 11 ===
Page 10 7/19/06
TT direct(cont...)
1:18:00 18:20 terms of
"
"
"
"
19:24
is part time
21:16
Miller
21:32
6/1/04
started as
22:00
started carrer on
23:00
do records reflect,
suspension date
24.10
27.52
5/26/06 how witness does has incrings
out anroad
29:02
did computer check On after
start date
29:55* can computer check from 11/16/05- 5/27/06
33.38 act
31:09 total of 25 cases during period open 8 closed
34.04
em played 3/20/06 legal
from 5/24
34.47 8 cases during period have ded ay
35.38 14 afters may have similar problems
36.17 away Q: was
36.47 Jury Q: is
familiar w/rules
37.38 TT'll
responsible for
38.00 Twry Q: who signed certificate for
38.49 Tway Q:
M
1:39:51 off record
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3501.055-083
CONFIDENTIAL
Page 11 of 11
EFTA00009438

=== Page 12 ===


c1: EFTA00009502
c2: DataSet 7
c3: VOL00007
c4: DataSet 7/VOL00007/IMAGES/0001/EFTA00009502.pdf
c6: pdf
c7: images
c0:
=== Page 1 ===
1
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
3
4
5
6
COPY
7
RE: OPERATION LEAP YEAR
8
/
9
10
11
12
TESTIMONY
13
OF
14
SPECIAL AGENT
15
16
17
18
Federal Grand Jury 07-103
Federal Building
19
U.S. Courthouse
West Palm Beach, Florida
20
Tuesday, April 24, 2007
21
22 APPEARANCES:
23
Assistant United States Attorney
24
25
Foreperson
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009502

=== Page 2 ===
2
1
The sworn testimony of SPECIAL AGENT
2
was taken before the
3
Federal Grand Jury, West Palm Beach Division,
4
Federal Building, U.S. Courthouse, Palm Beach
5
County, State of Florida, on Tuesday, April 24,
6
2007.
7
Paula E. Angelocci, Certified Court
8
Reporter and Notary Public, State of Florida,
9
Official Reporting Service, LLC,
10
,
Fort Lauderdale, Florida,
11
33301, was authorized to and did report the sworn
12
testimony.
13
)
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
EFTA00009503

=== Page 3 ===
3
1
(Witness enters the Grand Jury Room.)
2
THE FOREPERSON: You do solemnly swear
3
that the testimony you give will be the
4
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
5
truth, so help you God?
6
THE WITNESS: I do.
7
THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. Please be
8
seated.
9
10
EXAMINATION
11
BY
:
12
Q
Special Agent
,
would you
13
just remind the grand jurors who you are and who
14
you work for?
15
A
My name is
and I am
16
a special agent with the FBI and I work here in
17
Palm Beach.
18
Q
Special Agent
, can you tell
19
the grand jurors who will be appearing before them
20
this afternoon?
21
A
One of our victims,
, who was a
22
minor at the time that she met Mr. Epstein.
23
Q
And have you previously testified about
24
?
25
A
Yes, I have.
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
Copy lofis
EFTA00009504

=== Page 4 ===
4
1
&
Did you attempt to interview her? She's
2
going to be coming in, and she is not a minor
3
anymore, so what is her full name?
4
A
Her name is
and I did
5
attempt to interview
, and
was
6
interviewed by Palm Beach Police Department and
7
because of the statements she provided to the
8
police department, she felt as if she needed a
9
lawyer. So when I attempted to interview her, we
10
ended up going through her lawyer.
11
Q
And just so the grand jury has a little
12
bit of background, the interview with the Palm
13
Beach Police Department was quite some time ago?
14
A
Yes, it was, in the fall of '05.
15
&
And when Ms.
started that
16
conversation with the police, she was very
17
forthcoming?
18
A
Yes, she was.
19
&
Fully cooperative?
20
A
Yes.
21
&
And what happened in the middle of that
22
interview with the police?
23
A
The police just let
know that she
24
could be charged because
brought some of the
25
girls to Mr. Epstein and the police - - she was
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
EFTA00009505

=== Page 5 ===
5
1
very cooperative, but the police at that point had
2
to let
know that what she had done that she
3
could be facing charges.
4
Q
And that was after they had told her
5
earlier that she didn't need an attorney present,
6
correct?
7
A
Exactly.
8
Q
Okay. So this happens to her with the
9
Palm Beach Police Department and did the Palm
10
Beach Police actually present or propose charging
11
?
12
A
They did get a probable cause affidavit
13
against
-
14
Q
And is that why Ms.
and her
15
attorney were concerned about her testimony here?
16
A
Yes.
17
Q
Now was a subpoena issued for Ms.
18
on behalf of this grand jury?
19
A
Yes, it was.
20
Q
And before Ms.
would comply with
21
that, did she - - did her attorney request some
22
sort of order?
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
And what did he ask for?
25
A
He asked for immunity for
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
Copy (of 13
EFTA00009506

=== Page 6 ===
6
1
Q
And let me show you the order, that is a
2
sealed order in these grand jury proceedings. Now
3
the immunity that has been provided for Ms.
4
keeps her statements that are made here from being
5
used against her?
6
A
Yes, it does.
7
Q
It doesn't -- if she commits perjury and
8
she lies to the grand jury, can she still be
9
charged?
10
A
Yes, she can.
11
Q
Okay. Could you read that? I know it
12
is only two pages.
13
A
Sealed order, on application of the
14
United States Attorneys for the Southern District
15
of Florida and it appearing to the satisfaction of
16
the court that
has been called to
17
testify and to provide other information before
18
the United States District Court, the Southern
19
District of Florida, including a grand jury
20
impaneled therein.
21
And number two, that in a judgment of
22
the said United States Attorneys,
has
23
refused to testify and provide other information
24
on the basis of her privilege against self
25
incrimination.
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
EFTA00009507

=== Page 7 ===
7
1
And that number three, in the judgment
2
of the United States Attorneys, the testimony and
3
other information from
made necessary
4
to the public interest.
5
And number four, that the aforesaid
6
application has been made with the approval of the
7
Assistant Attorney General in charge of the
8
criminal division of the Department of Justice or
9
a duly designated acting Assistant Attorney
10
General pursuant to the authority vested in him by
11
Title 18, United States Code, Section 6003, and
12
Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Section
13
0.175 and 0.132, small e.
14
Now, therefore, it is ordered pursuant
15
to Title 18, United States Code, Section 6002,
16
that
give testimony and provide other
17
information which she refuses to give or to
18
provide on the basis of her privilege against self
19
incrimination as to all matters about which she
20
may be interrogated before said United States
21
District Court including a grand jury impaneled
22
therein as well as any subsequent proceeding or
23
trial.
24
However, no testimony or other
25
information compelled under this order or any
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
coon lof (3
EFTA00009508

=== Page 8 ===
8
1
information directly or indirectly derived from
2
such testimony or other information may be used
3
against
in any criminal case except a
4
prosecution for perjury giving a false statement
5
or otherwise failing to comply with this order.
6
It is further ordered that this order
7
shall be sealed in accordance with said Federal
8
Regulations Criminal.
9
BY
:
10
Q
Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure.
11
A
Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure, it's
12
abbreviated, 6, little e, 6, except that a copy of
13
this order shall be provided to counsel for the
14
United States who may disclose the existence of
15
the order to members of the grand jury, to the
16
witness, to the counsel for the witness, and to
17
law enforcement officers engaged in the
18
investigation pending before the grand jury.
19
Those persons may review the order, but
20
may not retain a copy of the order nor may it
21
disclose the existence of the order to any others.
22
Done and ordered the 16th day of April 2007, at
23
West Palm Beach, Florida. The United States
24
District Judge Donald M. Middlebrook,
25
AUSA.
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
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EFTA00009509

=== Page 9 ===
9
1
Q
All right. So has a copy or has this
2
document been shown to counsel for Ms.
?
3
A
Yes, it has.
4
Q
And to Ms.
?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
And will Ms.
be here this
7
afternoon?
8
A
Yes, she will.
9
Q
Have you had a chance to sit with her?
10
A
Yes, we have.
11
Q
And she has been very forthcoming?
12
A
She's very cooperative.
13
Q
Okay.
14
MS.
:
I don't have any further
15
questions for the witness. Do you have any
16
questions? All right. Seeing no questions,
17
you are excused and I think that right now
18
you are set to come back at 1:15. How does
19
1:30 sound? Is that all right?
20
THE FOREPERSON: Fine.
21
(Witness was excused.)
22
23
24
25
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
copy 10f13
EFTA00009510

=== Page 10 ===
10
1
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
I, Paula E. Angelocci, Certified Court
4
Reporter and Notary Public, do certify that the
5
transcript is a true and correct transcription of
6
my stenotype notes of the testimony of
7
SPECIAL AGENT
taken before
,
8
the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm Beach, Florida.
9
Paula L Angelacei CSR #4869
10
Certified Court Reporter
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
EFTA00009511


c1: EFTA00009478
c2: DataSet 7
c3: VOL00007
c4: DataSet 7/VOL00007/IMAGES/0001/EFTA00009478.pdf
c6: pdf
c7: images
c0:
=== Page 1 ===
1
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
3
4
5
ORIGINAL
6
7
RE: OPERATION LEAP YEAR
8
/
9
10
11
12
TESTIMONY
13
OF
14
SPECIAL AGENT
15
16
17
18
Federal Grand Jury 07-103
Federal Building
19
U.S. Courthouse
West Palm Beach, Florida
20
Tuesday, March 20, 2007
21
22
APPEARANCES:
23
AssIstant United States Attorney
24
HELENA JOSETTE JONES-PARSONS,
25
Foreperson
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009478

=== Page 2 ===
2
1
The sworn testimony of SPECIAL AGENT E.
2
was taken before the Federal
3
Grand Jury, West Palm Beach Division, Federal
4
Building, U.S. Courthouse, Palm Beach County,
5
State of Florida, on Tuesday, March 20, 2007.
6
,
Certified Court
7
Reporter and Notary Public, State of Florida,
8
Official Reporting Service, LLC, 524 South Andrews
9
Avenue, Suite 302N, Fort Lauderdale, Florida,
10
33301, was authorized to and did report the sworn
11
testimony.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE, LLC
(954) 467-8204
EFTA00009479

=== Page 3 ===
3
1
(Witness enters the Grand Jury Room.)
2
THE FOREPERSON: You do solemnly swear
3
that the testimony you give will be the
4
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
5
truth, so help you God?
6
THE WITNESS: I do.
7
THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. Please be
8
seated.
9
EXAMINATION
10
BY
:
11
Q
Special Agent
,
could you
12
please state and spell your name for the record?
13
A
It's
- It's
14
-
15
Q
Now Special Agent
.
last week
16
or the last time that we met, we discussed two
17
girls, correct?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
Who visited Mr. Epstein's home?
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
And those were
- and
.?
22
A
Yes.
23
Q
Did you obtain photographs of those
24
girls?
25
A
Yes, I did.
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4
1
Q
And do you know approximately when those
2
photographs were taken?
3
A
They were taken during the same time
4
period that we are investigating, '04 and '05.
5
There may have been a few in '03, but it was
6
within a year's time of six months within the
7
activity that we are investigating.
8
Q
All right. Let me show you what has
9
been marked as Grand Jury Exhibits 1 and 2, and
10
can you tell us what Exhibit 1 is?
11
A
Exhibit 1 is
. and it's a
12
photograph of her with her date of birth listed.
13
Q
And what is Exhibit 2?
14
A
A photograph of
- with her date
15
of birth as well on it.
16
MS.
:
And I will just pass
17
those to the grand jury.
18
BY MS.
:
19
Q
Now the last time that we were here, you
20
had described how
- had brought
.
21
to Mr. Epstein's home?
22
A
Yes.
23
Q
Did
.
bring other girls to the
24
Epstein house?
25
A
Yes, she did.
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5
1
Q
And is one of those girls
?
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
And what is the date of birth of
4
?
5
A
She was born
6
Q
And where did
.
go to high
7
school?
8
A
9
Q
And is that the same school that
10
-
went to?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
And was
.
ever a student at that
13
school?
14
A
Yes, she was.
15
Q
Tell us a little bit about -- well,
16
first of all, did the Palm Beach Police Department
17
have a chance to interview
?
18
A
Yes, they did.
19
Q
And what about yourself?
20
A
And I did as well.
21
Q
Okay. Tell us, if you will, how
22
-
started going to Mr. Epstein's house?
23
A
was the one who brought
to
24
Mr. Epstein's house.
told
that she
25
may have to remove her clothing and that she could
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1
makes $ $200 if she performed a massage for Mr.
2
Epstein.
3
She also was told by
that he may
4
try to touch you, but if you are uncomfortable,
5
just tell him no, and she also said that if
6
Epstein asked her age, she was to say she was 18.
7
&
Now that information that you just
8
relayed, who provided that information?
9
A
.
10
Q
And what did
--
11
A
I'm sorry.
provided in the
12
interview to me that information.
13
Q
Did
also admit that she brought
14
to Mr. Epstein's home?
15
A
Yes.
16
&
When did this first occur?
17
A
This occurred in - - we believe the first
18
time period was when
was 16.
19
&
And is there any telephone records that
20
show communications between
and
21
- and
- and
?
22
A
Yes.
23
&
And when are those phone records?
24
A
Those phone records show up in March of
25
' 04 when
would be 16.
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1
Q
Let me show what has been marked as
2
Grand Jury Exhibit Number 3, and what is Exhibit
3
3?
.4
A
This is a photograph of
with
5
her date of birth,
.
6
Q
Now you mentioned that in March of 2004
7
and April of 2004, there are these records of
8
phone calls and did
say how old she was
9
when she first went to Mr. Epstein's house?
10
A
I'm sorry. Did
say how old she
11
was?
12
Q
Did she tell you or the police officers
13
how old she was?
14
A
Yes. I'm sorry. I thought your
15
question was did she tell Mr. Epstein.
16
She told me that she was 16 when she
17
went to Mr. Epstein's house.
18
Q
Okay. That is consistent with those
19
phones calls?
20
A
Yes, it is.
21
Q
Okay. Now during her first visit with
22
Mr. Epstein, what happened?
23
A
She went to Mr. Epstein's house.
24
took her there.
told her she didn't have
25
her driver's license at that time, which she told
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1
her she got her driver's license when she was 17.
2
So
drove her to Mr. Epstein's
3
house. She provided Mr. Epstein with a few
4
massages. She remained clothed both times that
5
she gave him a massage. At this time, she kept
6
her clothes on.
7
I think one time she was wearing shorts
8
and a T-shirt, maybe the second time she was
9
wearing jeans and a T-shirt. That he constantly
10
grabbed and pulled at her during the massage
11
trying to draw her closer to him, but at that
12
time, you know, there was no sexual activity other
13
than the grabbing and pulling.
14
There was no sexual activity that took
15
place on those first couple of massages, and she
16
remained clothed at that time.
17
Q
Now after those first few massages, was
18
there a break in time before
returns to
19
the Epstein house?
20
A
told us that she and
had
21
had some kind of a
, a
22
,
so there was a time
23
period where she did not go back to Mr. Epstein's
24
house.
25
Q
And when -- did there then come a time
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1
when she returned to the Epstein house?
2
A
Yes. We have phone activity between
3
and
beginning in December
4
of '04.
5
Q
And how old was
.
in December
6
of '04?
7
A
She had turned 17 at that time. In
8
fact, through the course of the phone records
9
beginning in December of ' 04 to October of 2005,
10
we have over 150 phone calls between
Z.
11
and
, Mr. Epstein's assistant.
12
Q
What did
Z. tell you about the
13
activity that occurred when she started returning
14
in late '04?
15
A
When she started giving Mr. Epstein
16
massages after that break, the massages became
17
much more sexual in nature. Mr. Epstein continued
18
to push and there were many times when
19
would perform massages completely nude.
20
Several times, she would stay in her
21
underwear with no bra on, but stated to me that
22
many occasions she performed the massages to Mr.
23
Epstein in the nude.
24
Q
In addition to being unclothed, was
25
there other sexual activity?
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10
1
A
Yes, there was.
,
during my
2
interview with
,
she became very upset when
3
discussing the sexual activity that took place at
4
that time.
5
She stated that Mr. Epstein had
6
her. It began first by
7
and then
8
on more than one occasion actually
9
10
He would request her to pinch his
11
He rubbed her
as well. She
-
12
stated that there was a
that was
13
as well, did not penetrate her, but
14
that she described the
15
,
and several of the
16
other victims have said the same thing, described
17
it similar to that.
18
Q
And just before I forget, when you
19
testified about
did
.
also report
20
having a
?
21
A
Yes.
22
&
And, again, so the record is clear, when
23
you are talking about these
, they are
24
the
?
25
A
We have had some girls just describe
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11
1
them as a
We have had some girls just
2
describe them as a
and then we also
3
had girls describe them as both, because of the
4
of it, I think some girls are more aware of
5
what a
would look like due to their ages.
6
You know, I don't know that everybody
7
knew exactly what a
looked like,
8
but they all
,
and we have actually had
9
that described, and
described it as both,
10
a
saying that it was, you
11
know,
in nature.
12
Q
Okay. Now in addition to using that
13
, was
14
there other sexual activity?
15
A
Yes. Several times during the massages,
16
Mr. Epstein would have
straddle him while
17
he laid on his stomach and then he would reach
18
and
19
occasionally - -
20
Q
And this is when he was laying on his
21
back not his stomach?
22
A
I'm sorry. Did I say that?
23
Q
You said on his stomach.
24
A
He is laying on his back. She's on top
25
of him straddled, and he is reaching
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12
1
2
, but
3
that was what was described to us by
-
4
Q
Now when was
first interviewed
5
by the Palm Beach Police?
6
A
She was interviewed October 6th of 2005.
7
Q
And at that time, did she say when her
8
last visit was to Mr. Epstein's house?
9
A
Yes, she said October 1st, 2005, was the
10
last massage that she had given Mr. Epstein.
11
Q
Is there any other evidence that was
12
recovered from Mr. Epstein's or his household
13
items that would confirm that statement?
14
A
We have a message pad. During the
15
search warrant, several of the message pads -- I
16
don't know if we referred to them at this stage.
17
We may not have.
18
We recovered - - well, I shouldn't say
19
we, the Palm Beach Police Department recovered
20
several message pads. They were carbon copy
21
message pads.
22
So we have several of those books from
23
their search warrant and in there, there is a
24
message on October 1st confirming
25
appointment for the massage as well as another
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13
1
girl,
2
Q
And is there also evidence that
3
and
actually spoke on October 1st
4
before that message?
5
A
We have cell phone calls between
6
and
as well as the message which
7
was from
to Jeffrey regarding - - confirming
8
the appointment for
, but we have a cell
9
phone call I believe it was a little bit earlier
10
from
to
or maybe it was
to
11
,
but it is definitely between the two of
12
them on that same day.
13
Q
All right. When
was interviewed
14
by the Palm Beach Police Department, did she
15
describe all of the sexual activity?
16
A
No, she did not. She did not tell them
17
about the
or the -- she didn't tell them
18
about the
19
Q
And, again, you said that when you
20
brought up -- did you sort of confront her with
21
the idea that more had occurred?
22
A
I did, and she was very embarrassed
23
about the
I asked her at one point if
24
Mr. Epstein had given her any gifts and she got
25
very red in the face and began to tear up and you
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14
1
could see that she was very embarrassed.
2
So we took a little bit of a break, but
3
then she was able to say that Mr. Epstein had
4
provided her as a birthday present a
.
So
5
not only was there a
used
6
on her, but at this time -- and I think that's
7
kind of what got
talking about the sexual
8
activity that she was able to tell me that, and
9
she was very, very embarrassed, but that Mr.
10
Epstein had given her for her eighteenth birthday
11
a
.
12
&
Now you mentioned that that happened on
13
her eighteenth birthday?
14
A
Yes.
15
Q
And was she able to tell you whether Mr.
16
Epstein knew it was her eighteenth birthday?
17
A
She stated that Mr. Epstein provided to
18
her on her eighteenth birthday the
and
19
shortly -- well --
20
Q
So before you had said that
had
21
instructed
to tell everyone that she was
22
18; do you remember that?
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
But at some point, the people in the
25
Epstein household learned that she hadn't turned
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15
1
18 yet and her birthday was coming up?
2
A
Her birthday was coming up.
3
Q
And at some point, was a car provided
4
for
?
5
A
Yes. In October of '05,
was
6
having --
asked Mr. Epstein is she could
7
borrow one of his cars to go to Orlando and he
8
stated that -- at first he said yes, and then he
9
said he would get her a rental car.
10
So
contacted
a few days
11
later and said that a car had been rented for
12
and that the house manager used the
13
company credit card and
picked up that
14
car, and actually when the police interviewed her
15
on October 6th, which was five or six days after
16
the last massage, they were able to see that that
17
Nissan Sentra that had been rented by Mr. Epstein,
18
had that in her possession for at least
19
through January 1st of 2006 and that car was
20
rented by Mr. Epstein for at least that amount of
21
time.
22
Q
Did
describe how the massage
23
appointments would be made?
24
A
Yes, she did.
25
Q
And how was that?
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16
1
A
She stated that
, that
2
,
Jeffrey's assistant, would call her and set
3
up appointments, and that sometimes she would call
4
her on her cell phone from New York, from the
5
Islands, and say that they were coming into town,
6
was she available.
7
She would also call
while they
8
were in town to see if she was available for
9
massages, to give massages to Mr. Epstein, and
10
stated that
, who we have identified as
11
called her a few times as well to set
,
12
appointments up.
13
Q
And when those appointments were made
14
how would
reach
?
15
A
By phone.
16
Q
All right. And whether she was in town
17
or out of town, she would call
cell
18
phone?
19
A
Yes.
20
Q
All right. Now was there any -- during
21
the interview with the police department, did the
22
police department ask
about what she
23
discussed with Jeffrey Epstein during the
24
massages?
25
A
I would have to check the police reports
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17
1
to give specifics on that.
2
Q
All right.
3
A
My answer to your question is yes.
4
Q
Okay. And what did she say were some of
5
the topics of discussion?
6
A
Mr. Epstein asked her questions about
7
herself, asked her if she was a
or
8
that -- Jeffrey knew that she was a
9
and asked questions about her college, about where
10
she was going to school.
11
is currently going to
12
,
and she had advised Mr. Epstein that
13
she would be attending college at
14
Q
So that was a -- but that was her future
15
plan?
16
A
Yes.
17
Q
So in other words, did Mr. Epstein know
18
that she was in high school at the time?
19
A
Yes, he did. And the Palm Beach Police
20
asked
if Jeffrey knew her age and
21
told the Palm Beach Police Department, he didn't
22
care what my age was.
23
Q
Now did
describe either to you
24
or to the police department how she would be paid
25
for these massages?
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18
1
A
She stated she was paid $200 and that
2
she received anywhere from two to $300.
3
&
With every visit?
4
A
With each visit.
5
&
Okay. Did she say who would provide her
6
with that money?
7
A
She said that Jeffrey paid her at the
8
end of the massage.
9
Q
All right. You mentioned the gift of
10
the vibrator. Were there other gifts that were
11
given to
?
12
A
Yes. The time period is unclear, but
13
the
was given to her for her eighteenth
14
birthday. There were three sets of bra and
15
underwear, panties, Victoria Secret bra and
16
underwear sets that were also given to
as
17
gifts from Mr. Epstein.
18
Q
Now I know that we talked earlier about
19
the fact that
is the person who brought
20
to Mr. Epstein's house. Did
ever
21
bring anyone to Mr. Epstein's house?
22
A
brought a female by the name of
23
and that was a friend of
-
24
10
And let me show you what has been marked
25
as Grand Jury Exhibit 4, and what is Grand Jury
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19
1
Exhibit 4?
2
A
It's a photograph of
.
with a
3
date of birth of
.
4
Q
How old was
* when
took
5
her to Mr. Epstein's house?
6
A
took her there in the spring of
7
2005 and
was 18 at that time.
8
Q
Now can you tell us now
went
9
about bringing
to the house?
10
A
told
that she could make
11
some money giving a massage to Mr. Epstein and
12
and
went to Mr. Epstein's house
13
together.
14
The first time that
went there,
15
she did not go upstairs and give him a massage.
16
was working that day. But in talking to
17
further,
stated that she probably
18
over the period of time between the spring of '05
19
and October of '05, performed around five to ten
20
massages for Mr. Epstein.
21
The first few of those he did not do
22
anything as far as no
, no sexual
23
activity. She would just perform a massage.
24
Q
And did that change over time?
25
A
Yes, it did. She stated that she
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20
1
performed two to three massages out of those five
2
or ten and in her underwear and bra only, and
3
that he would push her each time.
4
He would just push her to do more and on
5
the third -- I believe she stated the third or
6
fourth massage, he told her that she could make
7
more money if she removed her clothing, because
8
she stayed clothed during the first few massages,
9
and she was paid $200 for each of those massages.
10
On the third or fourth massage, Mr.
11
Epstein said that she could make more money if she
12
removed her clothing. So around the fourth or
13
fifth time, she did start taking off her clothing
14
down to her underwear and bra only.
15
&
And then what happened when she was at
16
that point of being unclothed?
17
A
She would perform the massage. He
18
attempted to touch her, but she always would say
19
no. At one point, her bra does get undone by Mr.
20
Epstein, but she does keep it up.
21
Q
Now that was the extent of his touching
22
-
At some point, did he
23
in front of her?
24
A
Yes, he did. Not in the very beginning,
25
but throughout this he did. Now I should tell you
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21
1
that
stated to us that because she was kind
2
of reserved or held back as he made advances
3
towards her, she was able to see Mr. Epstein's
4
and that he
but that he
5
, that he
.
She did
6
not feel that Mr. Epstein liked her very much.
7
Q
But just to sort of compare what
8
said with what
said, they both said that
9
at the beginning they remained clothed?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
And that Mr. Epstein progressively
12
pushed and pushed and pushed for more sexual
13
activity?
14
A
Yes.
15
Q
Now what was the period of time that
16
went to Mr. Epstein's home?
17
A
March of - - I'm sorry, spring of '05 is
18
when
said that she went there and around,
19
you know, the investigation is heating up with
20
Palm Beach, so we know that in September of '05,
21
there was a trash pull done, and in that trash
22
pull there was a message and that was found and it
23
stated -- it had
phone number on it and
24
it stated, for a good time call
and
25
.
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22
1
Q
And whose stationery was that?
2
A
It was on Jeffrey Epstein's stationery.
3
Q
And had Jeffrey Epstein been in a Palm
4
Beach resident close to those dates?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
Now is there evidence of telephone calls
7
between
and
?
8
A
Yes.
9
Q
And how many phone calls have you been
10
able to identify?
11
A
At this time, there have been 14 phone
12
calls.
13
Q
All right. And just to compare that to
14
the number of phone calls with
?
15
A
With
,
there was over 150 phone
16
calls between
and
.
17
Q
And that is sort of consistent with the
18
number of massages that
did versus the
19
number of massages that
did?
20
A
It is consistent with especially the
21
activity that
was providing Mr. Epstein
22
compared to the activity that
would
23
provide.
24
(Thereupon, knocking is heard at the
25
Grand Jury door.)
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23
1
:
Let me just step out for
2
one moment.
3
exits the Grand Jury
4
Room. )
5
enters the Grand Jury
6
Room. )
7
: Ladies and gentlemen, I
8
am going to have to take a break now and we
9
will be back either next week or the
10
following week. Thank you very much. You
11
are done for the day.
12
(Witness was excused.)
13
14
15
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
16
17
I,
,
Certified Court
18
Reporter and Notary Public, do certify that the
19
transcript is a true and correct transcription of
20
my stenotype notes of the testimony of
21
SPECIAL AGENT
,
taken before
22
the Federal Grand Jury West Palm Florida
23
24
Certified Court Reporter
25
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=== Page 1 ===
1
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
2
WEST PALM BEACH
3
4
5
6
7
8
IN RE: OPERATION LEAP YEAR
9
10
/
11
Grand Jury #07-103 (TUES-WPB)
12
West Palm Beach, Florida
Tuesday, May 15, 2007
13
14
15
TESTIMONY
16
OF
17
18
19
20
21 APPEARANCE:
22
, ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY
23
NANCY SIEGEL, COURT REPORTER
24
25
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
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=== Page 2 ===
2
1
PROCEEDINGS
2
-
3
The sworn testimony of
was taken
4
before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm Beach Division,
5
701 Clematis Street, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach County,
6
State of Florida, on the 15th day of May, 2007.
7
NANCY SIEGEL, Registered Merit Reporter and Notary
8
Public was authorized to and did report the sworn
9 testimony.
10
Thereupon,
11
,
12
a witness of lawful age, having been first duly sworn by
13
the foreperson, testified on her oath as follows:
14
BY
:
15
Q
Good morning, Special Agent. could you state
16
and spell your name for the record.
17
A
Special Agent
,
18
19
Q
And with whom do you work?
20
A
The FBI here in West Palm Beach.
21
Q
And are you here today on the continuing
22
investigation known as Operation Leap Year?
23
A
Yes, I am.
24
Q
And you are one of the case agents on this
25
investigation, correct?
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3
1
A
Yes, I am.
2
Q
The last time you were here we were discussing
3
the evidence supporting various overt acts and charges
4
related to Jane Does number 1 and 2?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
Today we are going to start with Jane Doe
7
number 3. Can you tell the Grand Jury who that is and
8
summarize briefly your previous testimony about her.
9
A
Jane Doe number 3 is
and she first
10
started, we have first phone contact with
11
starting in December of 2004,
would have been 16
12
or 17 at that time, let me do the math real quick, she
13
would have been 16 -- sorry, I am sorry, she would have
14
been at that time 17, let's get it right, so she started
15
phone contact,
started calling her in
16
September of 2004.
17
From testimony we know that
went there
18
earlier, much earlier.
,
which was Jane Doe
19
number 4 you will hear about next, they were good
20
friends and they both went in the spring of '04, prior
21
to
17th birthday, so
did start giving
22
Mr. Epstein massages when she was 16, she performed a
23
few massages for Mr. Epstein and then took kind of a
24
little bit of a break.
25
The sexual activity that occurred with
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4
1
Mr. Epstein when
was under the age of 18
2
included
3
,
she was given gifts by Mr. Epstein, she was
5
given a
, she was given Victoria Secret
6
underwear, she was also given a car that Mr. Epstein
7
rented for her for a number of months, she was paid $200
8
by Mr. Epstein and
was the one that primarily
9
called
to set up appointments and as you can see
10
that began in December of '04.
11
was also one of Mr. Epstein's
12
favorites, according to several of the other girls.
13
Q
Just so the Grand Jury has an idea, how does
14
that translate into the number of phone calls between
15
and
that you were able to calculate?
16
A
called her, I guess calls between
17
the two of them ranged around 125 phone calls from
18
December 6th, 2004 until October, 2005.
19
Q
And just briefly can you remind the Grand Jury
20
did
ever tell Mr. Epstein her age?
21
A
No, they did not ever discuss, she did not
22
tell him how old she was, but she did tell him where she
23
planned on going to school and that she was in
.
24
she stated that when it came to her age that
25
Mr. Epstein didn't care. As I mentioned earlier,
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5
1
and
were very good friends and
would talk
2 about
and Mr. Epstein would ask questions about
3
when
was providing massages and as we will
4
talk about when we talk about Jane Doe number 4, which
5
is
, she told Mr. Epstein that she was a junior in
6
high school and that
and her were in the
7
and that they were
8 and
told us that at one point
had come to
9
her because she had slipped about prom and she was
10
worried because Epstein was supposed to think she was 18
11
and she had talked about the prom and
said she
12
never heard anything else about it and they never
13
brought it up.
14
Q
Because, according to
, Mr. Epstein
15
didn't care really how old the girls were?
16
A
Exactly.
17
Q
And she never mentioned he asked her for her
18
age or asked for any form of identification to show
19
whether she was or was not over 18?
20
A
No.
21
Q
NOW, if you could turn to the proposed
22
indictment and if I could ask you to look at overt act
23
number 59.
24
A
We had a little knock at the door. Do you
25
want me to get it?
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6
1
Q
Yes.
2
(Thereupon, there was a brief pause.)
3
A
I will let you see a picture of Jane Doe
4
number 4,
, who we were talking about earlier, and
5
this is
.
IS there anyplace you want to put it
6
right down here in front?
7
Q
And just so the record is clear, those are the
8
photographs that we showed to the Grand Jury last week?
9
A
Yes, it is.
10
Q
So if you could turn to overt act number 59
11
which appears on page 12, and if you could explain to
12
the Grand Jury the evidence we have related to that
13
phone call or phone calls on December 6th, 2004.
14
A
On December 6th, 2004 a review of the phone
15
records indicate that there was telephonic phone contact
16
between the numbers belonging to
and
17
, as well as we have evidence with
18
statements of the phone calls being made to
19
her by
.
20
Q
And overt act number 60?
21
A
A review of the phone records indicate
22
telephonic contact between the numbers belonging to
23
and
on December 12, 2004.
24
Q
And overt act number 64?
25
A
A review of the phone records indicate
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7
1
telephonic contact between numbers belonging to
2
and
on December 14th, 2004.
3
Q
And just so that it is clear to the Grand
4
Jury, when the overt acts says that defendant
5
made one or more telephone calls, that means that the
6
call is originating from
phone, is that
7
correct?
8
A
Yes, it does.
9
Q
And if you could turn to overt act number 71.
10
A
On December 20th a review of the phone records
11
indicate that there was telephonic contact between
12
and
-
13
Q
And overt act number 79?
14
A
On January 6th, 2005 a review of phone records
15
indicate there was telephone contact between numbers
16
belonging to
and
.
17
Q
And number 83?
18
A
On January 14th, 2005 a review of the phone
19
records indicate telephonic contact between numbers
20
belonging to
and
21
Q
And with respect to the other overt acts
22
related to the phone calls which would be 94, 100, 102,
23
104, 112, 118, 125, 129 and 132 is the evidence the
24
same?
25
A
Yes, on or about each of those dates a review
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8
1
of the phone records indicated telephonic contact
2
between the numbers belonging to
and
3
as well as
statements.
4
Q
NOW, if I could direct your attention to Count
5
number 7 which appears on page 26 of the draft
6
indictment, that is a charge of indictment of a minor
7
during the period of December 6th, 2004 through June 2nd
8
of 2005, could you summarize for the Grand Jury the
9
evidence related to that count.
10
A
On or about these dates the facility of
11
interstate commerce, the telephone, specifically
12
and
were utilized to set up
13
appointments, massage appointments for Epstein.
14
During the massages and on more than one
15
occasion Epstein
, he
16
used a
and Epstein
17
directed
to straddle him while he
18
and
, he would
19
, he would
as she was
20
straddling him, there was
21
, though.
22
He touched
breasts, he would
23
He paid
on multiple occasions $200.
24
Both
and Jeffrey Epstein have escorted
25
upstairs for these massages and Mr. Epstein gave
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9
1
a
,
Victoria Secret bra and panty sets
2
and he also rented her a car for several months.
3
Q
And just so that it is clear, you mentioned he
4
paid her on several occasions, he paid her every time
5
she performed these lewd acts, correct?
6
A
Yes, $200.
7
Q
And
is listed as a defendant with
8
respect to Jane Doe number 3 as well, and can you
9
explain to the Grand Jury a little bit more about who
10
is and why she is charged in this count?
11
A
is one of Mr. Epstein's personal
12
assistants as well and she made appointments for him for
13
these massages.
14
We have contact between
phone
15
and
phone, she contacted
approximately
16
25 times.
17
Q
And that's why she is also charged with
18
someone who is either an aider or abetter or a
19
coconspirator with respect to this?
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
okay. If I could direct your attention to
22
Count number 32 which appears on page 30, Count number
23
32.
24
A
I got 32.
25
Q
what is the evidence related to?
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10
1
A
I am sorry, I didn't hear you ask me the
2
question, I thought you said refer to it.
3
The evidence is we have flight records that
4
indicate on December 13th, 2004 Epstein traveled to Palm
5
Beach County on the Gulfstream, there was telephonic
6
contact between
and
the day
7
before or the day of travel, we also have the sexual
8
conduct between Jeffrey Epstein and
as we
9
described earlier in Count 7.
10
Q
And just to refresh the recollection of the
11
Grand Jury, the Gulfstream aircraft is the one owned by
12
Hyperion?
13
A
Air, Inc.
14
Q
And when you said that there was telephone
15
contact, you recall that in overt act number 60 that we
16
discussed phone calls on December 12th, correct?
17
A
We did.
18
Q
okay. If I could direct you to Count number
19
35 and if you could tell the Grand Jury about the
20
evidence according to that count.
21
A
Again, we have flight records that indicate
22
that on January 6th, 2005 Epstein traveled to Palm Beach
23
County on the Gulfstream again, there was telephonic
24
contact between
and
the day before,
25
the day of that travel, we also talked about the sexual
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11
1
conduct between Jeffrey and
between Epstein and
2
3
Q
And can you tell us again what aircraft they
4
flew on on January 6th?
5
A
That was the Gulfstream which was owned by
6
Hyperion Air, Inc.
7
Q
okay. If I could direct you to Count 36 and
8
again if you could summarize that evidence.
9
A
We have flight records that indicate that on
10
January 14th, 2005 Epstein,
and
traveled to
11
Palm Beach County on the Boeing 727 that Mr. Epstein
12
owns, there was telephonic contact between
13
and
the day before, the day of that
14
travel, as well as we have the sexual conduct between
15
Jeffrey Epstein and
as we described
16
earlier, and I will tell you that
is --
17
,
Mr. Epstein's personal assistant, and
is
18
we talked about just a few minutes ago,
19
Mr. Epstein, another of Mr. Epstein's personal
20
assistants.
21
Q
And if I could direct your attention to Count
22
37 and ask you to summarize the evidence related to that
23
count.
24
A
We have flight records that indicate that on
25
February 3rd, 2005 Mr. Epstein and
traveled
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12
1
to Palm Beach County on the Boeing 727, there was
2
telephonic contact between
and
3
the day before or the day of travel and we have
4
the sexual conduct between Epstein and
.
5
Q
And if I could direct your attention to Count
6
number 38.
7
A
In Count number 38 we have flight records that
8
indicate on February 10th, 2005 Mr. Epstein,
9
and
traveled to
,
10
Palm Beach County on the Gulfstream, there was telephone
11
contact between
and
the day
12
before or the day of travel, we also have the sexual
13
conduct between Mr. Epstein and
.
14
Q
Now, I am sorry, on Count number 38, which
15
airline were they on?
16
A
They were on the Gulfstream.
17
Q
Can I ask you to double-check that? There is
18
an inconsistency between the chart and the indictment or
19
we can save that for a later date.
20
A
It is right here.
21
Q
I will mark that we need to check on Count
22
number 38.
23
A
I have the flight manifest with me if you want
24
me to check, I don't know if you want me to do that now.
25
Q
Yes, if you don't mind.
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13
1
(Thereupon, there was a brief pause.)
2
A
In Count 38, flight records indicate on
3
February 10th, 2005 that Mr. Epstein,
,
4
and
were in fact on the
5
Boeing 727.
6
Q
So the draft indictment contains the correct
7
information?
8
A
Yes, it does.
9
Q
what company owns the Boeing 727?
10
A
JEGE, Inc., Incorporated.
11
Q
And if I could take you to Count number 39.
12
A
Evidence shows through flight records that on
13
February 21st, 2005 Epstein,
,
14
and
traveled to Palm Beach County on
15
the Boeing 727, there was telephonic contact between
16
and
the day before or the day
17
of travel, there was also the sexual conduct between
18
Epstein and
.
19
Q
And if I could take you to Count number 40,
20
please.
21
A
We have flight records that indicate on
22
February 24th, 2005 Epstein,
,
23
traveled to Palm Beach County on the Boeing
24
727, there was telephonic contact between
25
and
the day before, the day of travel, and
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14
1
there was sexual conduct between Jeffrey Epstein and
2
as we described earlier in Count 7.
3
Q
And if you could do Count 42.
4
A
We have evidence that shows flight records,
5
that flight records indicate that on March 18th, 2005
6
Epstein traveled to Palm Beach County on the Boeing 727,
7
there was telephonic contact between
and
8
the day of or the day before travel, we
9
have the sexual conduct between Mr. Epstein and
10
Q
And just referring to that count,
11
is named, although she was not on the flight that day,
12
is that correct?
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
And you said that she made the telephone calls
15
with
, correct?
16
A
Yes, and we also do have -- we have
17
interviewed Mr. Epstein's pilots and one of the pilots
18
indicated that
was the one that arranged all of
19
Mr. Epstein's travel arrangements and 50 she is
20
responsible for making his arrangements to travel to
21
Palm Beach as well as call the girls for the
22
appointments.
23
Q
If I could take you to Count number 43,
24
please.
25
A
Flight records indicate that on March 31st,
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15
1
2005 Mr. Epstein traveled to Palm Beach County on the
2
Boeing 727, there was telephonic contact between
3
and
the day before or the day of travel,
4
we also have the sexual conduct between Epstein as
5
described earlier in Count 7.
6
Q
Again, in Count 44, what is the evidence
7
related to that?
8
A
Flight records indicate that on April 8th,
9
2005 Epstein and
traveled to Palm Beach
10
County on the Gulfstream and there was telephonic
11
contact between
and
on the
12
day before or the day of travel, we also have the sexual
13
conduct between Mr. Epstein and
.
14
Q
And if you could go through 45, 46 and 47.
15
A
Count 45 we have flight records that indicate
16
on April 27th, 2005 Epstein and
traveled to
17
Palm Beach County on the Gulfstream, there is telephone
18
contact between
and
the day
19
before or the day of travel and we have the sexual
20
conduct between Jeffrey and
-
21
In Count 46 we have flight records that
22
indicate that on May 6th, 2005 Epstein,
and
23
traveled to Palm Beach County on the
24
Gulfstream.
25
We have also telephonic contact between
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16
1
and
either the day before or the
2
day of travel and we have the sexual conduct between
3
Epstein and
, and in Count 47 on May 19th, 2005
4
we have flight records that indicate Epstein,
5
and
traveled to Palm Beach County on
6
the Gulfstream and we have telephone contact between
7
and
the day before or the day
8
of travel.
9
We also have the sexual conduct between
10
Epstein and
as described in the earlier
11
count, Count 7.
12
Q
Now, if I could direct your attention to Count
13
number 51 which appears on page 33, that is the sex
14
trafficking of a minor involving Jane Doe number 3, and
15
could you briefly summarize that, the evidence related
16
to that.
17
A
AS we discussed earlier in Count 7, I told you
18
guys about the sexual conduct between Epstein and
19
, the monies that were paid to
by
20
Mr. Epstein, the phone activity we discussed between
21
and
, it began in December,
22
and we also have phone calls beginning in January from
23
to
, at that time
was 17
24
years of age, and we also have statements from
25
and
regarding Mr. Epstein's knowledge of their
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17
1
ages.
2
Q
And with respect to the affect on interstate
3
commerce related to that count we have both the
4
telephone calls, correct?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
AS well as Mr. Epstein actually traveling in
7
interstate commerce to engage in this activity, correct?
8
A
Yes, we do.
9
Q
IS there anything else that you would like to
10
mention about Jane Doe number 3?
11
A
Not at this time, no.
12
Q
If I could direct you to Jane Doe number 4 and
13
if you could summarize for the Grand Jury the
14
information related to Jane Doe number 4's activities.
15
A
Jane Doe number 4 is
,
I think you
16
wanted their birth dates, her birth date is
17
,
she was 16 years old and attended
18
19
We first have contact through phone calls from
20
to
on April 25th, 2004 which
21
indicates and shows that
was clearly 16 years of
22
age when she started going to Mr. Epstein's and
23
performing massages for Mr. Epstein.
24
, our Jane Doe number 1, was the one
25
who recruited
,
she basically told
that she
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1
could make $200, she needed to dress cute, he might try
2
to touch you, but if you feel uncomfortable just let him
3
know and he will stop, and the first massage that
4
did he repeatedly told
and I mentioned this to
,
5
you in the last Grand Jury session, she was very shy and
6
he would repeatedly tell her not to be 50 shy, that she
7
didn't have to be so shy.
8
Epstein asked her to remove her clothing and
9
she told him no, and throughout the massage he would
10
repeatedly grab at her,
he did
11
through this first massage and pulled her
12
clothes, she would pull away and she was paid $200 for
13
that.
14
Upon leaving the first massage Mr. Epstein
15
told
that if
was willing to do more she
16
would get paid more. He also informed
that if she
17
would bring her pretty friends he would also pay her for
18
bringing her pretty friends. He told
that
19
would get her phone number.
20
says that she performed three to four
21
massages for Mr. Epstein. We have with
22
approximately a hundred phone calls between
23
and
.
24
when I interviewed
she became very upset
25
when we got to the sexual massages that she did for
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19
1
Mr. Epstein. At this point, this is as much as we know
2
at this point of what occurred with Mr. Epstein and
3
.
4
she did three to four massages and those last
5
massages they became more sexual in nature, he asked her
6
again to remove her clothing, this time she took her
7
shirt off, he asked her to take her bra off, she said
8
no.
9
He again would
, he did continue
this time
11
she
"
He continued to compliment
12
her, tell her she had a nice body and that she was
13
pretty.
14
says that he was very nice and engaged
15
her in conversation, asked her, you know, if she had a
16
boyfriend. In the last massage she discusses with me,
17
and this massage Mr. Epstein told her to stop being shy
18
and asked her to take her clothes off and
said
19
that she had a boyfriend and she didn't feel comfortable
20
taking her clothes off and he told her you should know
21
what to expect by now when you come here, and he jerked
22
on her pants as to like jerk them down, so she did on
23
this last massage get down to her bra and underwear.
24
she describes his tone at this time being
25
frustrated and irritated, she stayed in her bra and
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1
underwear, but during the massage he grabbed her bra and
2
pulled it down and
, he had
3
instructed her to
while she
4
was massaging his chest, he tried to grab her all over,
5
he knew that she was upset with this massage.
6
At one point Mr. Epstein asked her if she had
7
sex with her boyfriend,
informs him that she is
8
still a virgin and he responds what, you don't like sex?
9
And that's pretty much the way that last massage went.
10
Q
Now, Special Agent
, just to
11
interrupt you, you mentioned that Jane Doe number 4
12
became very upset as you were asking her about the
13
massages, correct?
14
A
Yes.
15
Q
And when she was describing this incident with
16
him grabbing at her breast and trying to pull her pants
17
down and instructing her to remove her pants, correct?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
You had talked last week about the expert that
20
you had spoken with about interviewing victims of these
21
types of offenses?
22
A
Right.
23
Q
And you had told us about how a victim may be
24
reticent at first to tell the entire story until a
25
rapport is built?
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21
1
A
Right.
2
Q
Can you tell the Grand Jury your impressions
3
of your interview with
4
A
she became so visibly upset, and a lot of the
5
girls are embarrassed of what took place, but when she
6
talked about the last massage and him grabbing her
7
breasts and fondling her breasts she was in tears and we
8
stopped the massage and we calmed her down, trying to go
9
back there was just too difficult, I could not get her
10
back to discussing anything further that had taken
11
place.
12
I have since then -- I have since talked to
13
again and I feel there is more there, but I just
14
don't think she is ready to disclose what took place.
15
Q
So based upon the more than 60 telephone calls
16
as well as --
17
A
Approximately a hundred.
18
Q
-- 100 telephone calls and your conversations
19
with
you think there is probably more than four
20
massages that happened?
21
A
Yes, I do.
22
Q
was there anything else that you wanted to
23
discuss with the Grand Jury?
24
A
Just, as I stated in the beginning of those
25
massages, they engaged in conversation and throughout
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22
1
that conversation, you know, she did inform Mr. Epstein
2
that she was a junior in high school and again she is
3
one of the girls that talks about
being Mr.
4
Epstein's favorite, so because Mr. Epstein knew they
5
were friends they would engage in conversation about
6
, and
would mention they were in the
7
and they would discuss the friendship
8
they had between the two girls with Mr. Epstein and I
9
think that's it.
10
Q
All right. If we could turn to the
11
post-indictment to overt act number 4 which appears on
12
page number 5.
13
Did you obtain telephone records for Jane Doe
14
number 4?
15
A
Yes.
16
Q
And did you compare those with the phone
17
records of
and others?
18
A
Yes, I did.
19
Q
And can you tell us with respect to overt act
20
number 4 what evidence you have related to that?
21
A
A review of the phone records indicate that
22
there was telephonic contact between the numbers
23
belonging to
and
as well as
24
statements that
would call her to make
25
appointments.
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
EFTA00009533

=== Page 23 ===
23
1
Q
And if we could go through overt acts 6, 8, 9
2
and 11, all of which appear on page 6.
3
A
A review of the phone records on May 3rd,
4
2004, May 14th, 2004, May 20th, 2004 and June 3rd, 2004,
5
a review of those phone records indicate that there was
6
telephonic contact between numbers belonging to
7
and
as well as
statements.
8
Q
If I could take you to overt acts 14, 15 and
9
19 which appear on page 7.
10
A
A review of the phone records on June 11th,
11
2004, June 20th, 2004 and July 10th, 2004, they indicate
12
that there is telephonic contact between the numbers
13
belonging to
and
.
14
Q
And if I could ask you to turn to page 8 and
15
if you could address overt acts 24 and 25.
16
A
A review of the phone records on July 18th,
17
2004 and July 22nd, 2004, a review of
and
18
phone records indicate there is
19
telephonic contact belonging to both of them as well as
20
statements that
would arrange
21
appointments with her.
22
Q
If I could take you to page 9 of the draft
23
proposed indictment and ask about overt acts 29 and 30.
24
A
A review of the phone records indicate there
25
is telephonic contact on July 22nd, 2004 and August 4th,
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009534

=== Page 24 ===
24
1
2004 between numbers belonging to
and
2
as well as
statements.
3
Q
If I could take you to page 10 of the draft
4
proposed indictment and ask you about overt acts 37 and
5 43.
6
A
A review of phone records indicate telephonic
7
contact on August 25th, 2004 and october 3rd, 2004
8
between numbers belonging to
and
9
.
10
Q
And if you could turn to page 11 of the draft
11
proposed indictment and if you would address overt acts
12
47 and 48.
13
A
A review of the phone records indicate
14
telephonic contact on october 30th, 2004 and November
15
4th, 2004 between numbers belonging to
and
16
as well
statements.
,
17
Q
okay. And if you could go to page 14 of the
18
draft proposed indictment and address overt act number
19
77.
20
A
A review of phone records indicate that on
21
January 4th, 2005 there was telephonic contact between
22
and
as well as
23
statements.
24
Q
I'm sorry. If you could turn to page 16 of
25
the draft proposed indictment and address overt act
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
EFTA00009535

=== Page 25 ===
25
1
number 87.
2
A
A review of the phone records indicate that on
3
January 22, 2005 there is telephonic phone contact
4
between numbers belonging to
and
and
5
I believe I said on January 22nd, 2005.
6
Q
okay. And if you could go to page 17 and
7
address overt act number 101.
8
A
On February 14th, 2005 a review of the phone
9
records indicate that there was telephonic contact on
10
that day between numbers belonging to
and
11
,
as well as
statements.
12
Q
If you could turn to pages 18 and 19 and if
13
you would address overt acts 106, 114 and 116.
14
A
A review of the phone records indicate that
15
there is telephonic contact between
and
16
on February 24th, 2005 as well as
17
statements.
18
Q
Overt act number 114 says on March 18th, 2005
19
defendant
prepared a written message to defendant
20
Epstein regarding Jane Doe number 4, could you tell the
21
Grand Jury what the evidence is related to that?
22
A
We have a review of the message pads that were
23
recovered during the search warrant that the State
24
served that showed that
wrote a message to
25
Epstein regarding
and that was done on March 18th,
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009536

=== Page 26 ===
26
1
2005.
2
Q
Do you happen to remember what the message
3
said?
4
A
I have those with me.
5
Q
Would you mind getting them out?
6
A
Do you want to mark it?
7
Q
If you could just read it to the Grand Jury.
8
A
It is a message written by
for Jeffrey
9
on 3/18/2005, it looks like 4:21 p.m., and the message
10
reads is it okay if
will come at 5:00 and there is
11
a question mark.
12
Q
And if I could direct you to overt act number
13
116, what the evidence is related to that.
14
A
A review of the phone records on March 29th,
15
2005 indicate that there is telephonic contact between
16
and
as well as her --
17
statements.
18
Q
And if I could take you to overt act number
19
127 which is on page 20.
20
A
A review of phone records on April 11th, 2005
21
indicate that there is telephonic phone contact between
22
the numbers belonging to
and
as well
23
as
statements.
24
Q
Now, if you could go to Count number 8, which
25
alleges that between April 25th, 2004 and June 29th,
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
EFTA00009537

=== Page 27 ===
27
1
2005 Jeffrey Epstein,
,
enticed
2
Jane Doe number 4 to engage in sexual activity or
3
prostitution.
4
A
On or about these dates we have a facility of
5
interstate commerce, specifically the telephones,
6
,
and
, which were utilized to
7
set up, arrange massage appointments for Epstein, we
8
have
taking
upstairs to set up the
9
massage table, she would set the massage table up as
10
well as set up the lotions and the oils, we have during
11
those massages Epstein would grab and pull
closer
12
to him as he
he repeatedly would ask her to
13
remove her clothing, wearing her bra and underwear,
14
Epstein would pull down her bra and
15
he attempted to
at one point
16
but she stopped him, he
,
she believes that
17
, he paid her $200, he told her that he
18
would pay her to bring her pretty friends and would pay
19
her more if she would do more.
20
Q
And just so that this is clear to the Grand
21
Jury, June 29th of 2005 is the day before Jane Doe
22
number 4 turned 18, is that correct?
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
So was there activity that continued past her
25
18th birthday?
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009538

=== Page 28 ===
28
1
A
Yes.
2
Q
If I could direct you to Count number 17,
3
which appears on page 28, and tell us about the evidence
4
related to that.
5
A
We have evidence through flight records that
6
indicate on May 21st, 2004 that Epstein and
7
traveled to Palm Beach County on the
8
Gulfstream, we have telephonic contact between
and
9
the day before or the day of travel and we
10
have the sexual conduct between Epstein and
as we
11
described earlier in Count 8.
12
Q
And if you could go through Counts 18 and 19.
13
A
We have flight records that indicate on June
14
4th, 2004 Epstein and
traveled to Palm
15
Beach County on the Gulfstream, we have telephone
16
contact between
and
the day before,
17
the day of travel, we have sexual conduct between
18
Mr. Epstein and
as discussed earlier.
19
We have also Count 19 on June 20th, 2004 we
20
have flight records that indicate that Epstein and
21
traveled to Palm Beach County on the Boeing
22 727.
23
We have the telephone contacts between
24
and
the day before, the day of travel, we
25
also have the sexual conduct between Jeffrey and
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
EFTA00009539

=== Page 29 ===
29
1
as we described earlier in Count 8.
2
Q
could you do the same for Counts 22 and 23,
3
please.
4
A
Count 22 we have flight records that indicate
5
on July 22nd, 2004 Epstein,
6
traveled to Palm Beach County on the Boeing
7
727, we have the telephonic phone contact between
8
and
the day before or the day of travel, we
9
also have the sexual conduct between Jeffrey Epstein and
10
as we described earlier, and Count 23 we have
11
flight records that indicate on August 6th, 2004 Epstein
12
and
traveled to Palm Beach County on the
13
Boeing 727, we have telephonic contact between
14
and
two days prior to Epstein and
15
traveling to Palm Beach County, we have sexual
16
conduct between Jeffrey Epstein and
as we
17
described earlier.
18
Q
And if you could do the same for Count number
19
28, please.
20
A
Count number 28 we have flight records that
21
indicate on November 5th, 2004 Epstein,
,
22
traveled to Palm Beach County on the
23
Gulfstream, we have telephonic contact between
24
and
the day before or the day of travel,
25
we have the sexual conduct between Epstein and
-
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009540

=== Page 30 ===
30
1
Q
And if I could direct you to Count number 35,
2
you testified previously about the people who were
3
aboard the plane.
4
was there also telephone contact on January
5
6th -- excuse me, shortly before the flight on January
6
6th, 2005 between
and this Jane Doe?
7
A
Yes, two days before.
8
Q
And if you look at Count number 40, again, you
9
had previously told us about who was on board the plane.
10
Can you tell us whether there was also telephone contact
11
shortly before that?
12
A
There was telephone contact the day of or the
13
day before.
14
Q
All right. Between who and who?
15
A
Between
and
.
16
Q
okay. And if you could look at Count 43, you
17
also had testified previously about who was aboard the
18
plane on that day.
19
was there also telephone contact between Jane
20
Doe number 4 -- excuse me, Jane Doe number 4 and
21
?
22
A
Yes, two days before.
23
Q
And if I could direct you to Count number 52,
24
which is the sex trafficking offense, and if you could
25
summarize again for the Grand Jury the evidence related
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
EFTA00009541

=== Page 31 ===
31
1
to that.
2
A
We discussed in Count 8 the sexual conduct
3
that occurred between
and Epstein during the
4
massages that took place, we talked about the money that
5
was paid to her by Mr. Epstein and the offer of more
6
money if she would do more as well as if she would bring
7
her friends.
8
Through
statements we have also that
9
has paid her in the past for bringing a
10
friend, we have the phone activity between
11
and
which started in April, 2004, we know
12
was 16 at the time, we also have phone activity between
13
and
beginning in the spring of 2005
14
when
would be 17, with the statements of
and
15
, the knowledge that Mr. Epstein knew their age,
16
and we have gone through that regarding
informing
17
Mr. Epstein that she was a junior in high school, that
18
she was
, and then
19
statements that
was concerned because she was
20
discussing prom with Mr. Epstein, and both girls at that
21
time of the phone calls were under the age of 18.
22
Q
Just again so it is clear for the Grand Jury,
23
neither
nor
ever specifically said hey,
24
Jeffrey, I am 17, but they provided information that
25
should have caused him to try to figure out whether in
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009542

=== Page 32 ===
32
1
fact they were adults?
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
Any questions about Jane Doe number 4 before
4
we turn to Jane Doe number 5? Yes,
5
A GRAND JUROR: I have to say something here,
6
if it is a stupid question forgive me if it is,
7
from what I heard, maybe I heard wrong, there were
8
three to four massages that Jane Doe,
or
9
said that she had and you enumerated quite
10
a few sexual contact.
11
How do you know about this, do you have
12
records, how do you know they were sexual contact?
13
THE WITNESS: Through interviewing
.
14
A GRAND JUROR: She said she only had three to
15
four massages.
16
A GRAND JUROR: Her question is more like
17
there is 20 phone calls.
18
A GRAND JUROR: There is tons of them.
19
THE WITNESS: Exactly, that is what we were
20
discussing earlier when we discussed that there is
21
more than what
is willing to admit at this
22
time.
23
A GRAND JUROR: I got it. So she said she
24
only had three to four.
25
A GRAND JUROR: There is a hundred phone
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
EFTA00009543

=== Page 33 ===
33
1
calls.
2
A GRAND JUROR: You said you found out through
3
,
I am a little bit confused about that.
4
THE WITNESS: Through interviewing
, she
5
stated that she had three or four massages from
6
Mr. Epstein.
7
BY
:
8
Q
Special Agent
, the sexual activity
9
that you described that
went through, that is what
10
she said happened during those three to four massages,
11
correct?
12
A
Right.
13
Q
Does that answer your question?
14
A GRAND JUROR: Not really. How do we know
15
like about all these 25, 30?
16
A GRAND JUROR: There is more dates that match
17
up with the amount of massages.
18
A GRAND JUROR: There were a hundred phone
19
calls.
20
A GRAND JUROR: Are we supposed to assume a
21
phone call was made each time they had sexual
22
contact?
23
THE WITNESS: No. There are lots of phone
24
calls made arranging appointments between the
25
girls, that doesn't mean that every phone call that
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009544

=== Page 34 ===
34
1
was made was a trip over to Mr. Epstein's house to
2
perform a massage.
3
: Yes, ma'am.
4
A GRAND JUROR: Couldn't they put anything in
5
this indictment about stalking her, are there any
6
rules against stalking children?
7
: I will address -- that is a
8
legal question that I will address when the Special
9
Agent is outside of the Grand Jury. Any other
10
factual questions related?
11
A GRAND JUROR: I don't have a question
12
relating to Jane Doe number 4, it was a question I
13
asked last week, what does Mr. Epstein do for work,
14
how does he make his money? I asked that late,
15
late in the game last week.
16
: okay, I guess we can just
17
address that now.
18
BY
:
19
Q
what is Mr. Epstein's state of profession?
20
A
He is an investor.
21
Q
And he manages portfolios valued at about a
22
billion or more?
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
who is his best known client?
25
A
The owner of the Limited and victoria Secret.
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
EFTA00009545

=== Page 35 ===
35
1
Q
And you mentioned that as gifts Mr. Epstein
2
tended to give Victoria Secrets panties and bra sets?
3
A
Yes.
4
Q
Does that answer the question?
5
A GRAND JUROR: Yes.
6
: Yes, ma'am.
7
A GRAND JUROR: Count 28 I thought I heard
8
that -- I thought I heard the detective say that it
9
was the Gulfstream rather than the Boeing 727 on
10
flight records, just for your info.
11
: Count number 28, let's go back
12
there.
13
BY
:
14
Q
Could you restate for the Grand Jury which
15
company owns the Gulfstream?
16
A
The Gulfstream is owned by Hyperion Air, Inc.
17
Q
And the Boeing is owned by whom?
18
A
JEGE, Inc.
19
Q
Any other questions before we go on to Jane
20
Doe number 5? We have four minutes.
21
Special Agent
, why don't I ask you
22
to step outside so I can answer that question for the
23
Grand Jury and address some issues.
24
(The witness was excused from the Grand Jury
25
room.)
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
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=== Page 36 ===
36
1
(Questions posed by the Grand Jury.)
2
(The testimony of the witness was concluded
3
before the Grand Jury.)
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
EFTA00009547

=== Page 37 ===
37
1
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4
5
I certify pages 2 through 36 are a true transcript of my
6
shorthand notes of the testimony of
7
before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm
8
Beach, Florida on the 15th day of Tuesday, 2007.
9
10
manuy Suggl
11
Nancy Siegel-Notary Public
12
Commission #DD0282274
13
Expires May 8, 2008
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
OFFICIAL REPORTING SERVICE
EFTA00009548

=== Page 38 ===


c1: EFTA00009654
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=== Page 1 ===
Fagge110622
USDC SDNY
DOCUMENT
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
ELECTRONICALLY FILED
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
DOC #:
DATE FILED: 11/24/21
X
:
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
:
[PROPOSED]
:
PROTECTIVE ORDER
- V. -
:
:
20 Cr. 330 (AJN)
GHISLAINE MAXWELL,
:
:
Defendant.
:
:
X
ALISON J. NATHAN, United States District Judge:
WHEREAS the Court has ordered production of materials
from the Epstein Victims' Compensation Fund to the Court
pursuant to Fed. R. Crim. P. 17(c) (the "Rule 17 Materials")
(see Dkt. No. 496);
WHEREAS those materials are likely to contain
information that would (1) affect the privacy and
confidentiality of individuals, (ii) would risk prejudicial
pretrial publicity if publicly disseminated, and (iii) are not
authorized to be disclosed to the public or disclosed beyond
that which is necessary for the trial in this action;
WHEREAS the Court has directed the parties to
negotiate and submit a proposed protective order;
IT HEREBY IS ORDERED:
1. Any and all Rule 17 Materials disclosed to the
Government, the defendant ("Defendant"), and/or to the
defendant's criminal defense attorneys ("Defense Counsel," and
1
EFTA00009654

=== Page 2 ===

=== Page 3 ===
Fagge2206222
collectively with the Government, "the Parties") shall be
treated as "Confidential Information" within the meaning of the
Protective Order (Dkt. No. 36 I 7) and shall be subject to the
provisions thereof.
2. At the discretion of the Court, the Court may
designate certain materials AS "Highly Confidential" within the
meaning of the Protective Order (Dkt. No. 36 1 11) and subject
to the provisions thereof.
SO ORDERED:
Dated:
New York, New York
November 24, 2021
Alia D.Nitto
HONORABLE ALISON J. NATHAN
United States District Judge
2
EFTA00009656

=== Page 4 ===


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c0:
=== Page 1 ===
Page 101
1
carefully -- the -- each -- each victim was tied to a
2
particular set of criminal activity. In other words, these
3
victims were not lumped in an aggregate sort of formless
4
petri dish.
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
They were individuals.
had met -- was
7
meeting with them, *indeed was finding new victims along with
8
the FBI, and they were conducting individualized assessments
9 of the viability of each victim witness, and indeed
10
submitted a follow on pros memo, a pros memo addendum in
11
July, and another one in September, and tailored -- continued
12
to tailor her indictment -- proposed indictment to these
13
individualized acts.
14
The question -- when I -- when I hear the victims
15
referred to in the aggregate, I wonder what effort there was
16
to sit down and address each individual victim, because there
17
were so many, and a credibility issue that could be very
18
troubling with one victim, if -- or, two victims, or four
19
victims --
20
A Fair.
21
Q
-- could well be overcome by other victims who had,
22
not those credibility issues, perhaps others, and if I may
23
finish, that in the aggregate, when presented individually in
24
total, a kind of a persuasive case could be made that would
25
be impossible with one or two or three? Does that -- is that
EFTA00009329

=== Page 2 ===
Page 102
1
a fair --
2
A
So, that is fair, and I think -- and your point
3
that we shouldn't sort of talk about the victims in aggregate
4
is a fair point. I would -- I would respond, and Ms.
5
goes into this in her affidavit a little bit, and
6
I've got it -- and I have a recollection of some discussion
7
of this between myself, and you're going to ask me who, so
8
let me just say I don't know who.
9
But the concern is when you have victims that know
10
one another, to what extent would defense -- if you've got
11
two victims that say A happened, even if it's similar sets of
12
facts, and another victim that said he did nothing wrong, and
13
another victim that said horrendous things happened, to what
14
extent does defense cast this as, they are trying to recover,
15
they're trying to do -- and so one of the concerns was when
16 you have victims that know one another, that brought one
17
another in, even if you've got similar patterns, if some of
18
them cast doubt, how would that be taken by -- by the jury?
19
0
Is that assessment or analysis your own, or is it
20
one that you developed with the people you talked to about
21
this case?
22
A
So, that -- that assessment would have been, in my
23
general recollection, but also based on my practice, that
24
kind of witness assessment is the kind of thing that I would
25 have relied more on the AUSA -- on my management team for,
EFTA00009330

=== Page 3 ===
Page 103
1
because that was more within their -- their area of
2
expertise.
3
Q
Right, and
in particular was known as
4
a trial attorney.
5
A
Right.
6
Q
Correct?
7
A
Right.
8
0
Do you recall having discussions with
about
9
that?
10
A
He would have been the logical --
11
Q
Right.
12
A
-- person. I know that we had those discussions,
13
and we talked about what happened, how will they -- how will
14
they play out at trial, and -- and the takeaway was, it could
15
play out well, it could not play out well.
16
O
So, as of the time that all --
17
A
And again, I say they as a collective.
18
Q
Right.
19
A
Understanding that some would say exonerating
20
things. Some would have contradictory statements. Some may
21
not want to testify, and -- and so, that conversation was
22
had.
23
Q
So, was had, it -- you and
talked about it?
24
A
I can't say --
and I can say, I recall the
25
discussion, you know, I don't know -- 12 years ago, you might
EFTA00009331

=== Page 4 ===
Page 104
1
recall a discussion from 12 years ago. What -- what you
2
presented to me, for the record, I'm pointing to
, or I'm
3
indicating
, the -- the issue about civil rights, do you
4
recall who else was in the room or wasn't in the room at the
5 time?
6
Q I --
7
A
Yeah, I --
8
Q
It's a rhetorical question.
9
A
It's a rhetorical question.
10
Q
We'll take it, I guess.
11
A
But -- --
12
Q
Yes.
13
A
-- you know, it's very - -- it -- one can remember
14
substance without remembering who was in the room at the
15
time.
16
0
And understanding --
17
A
Right.
18
Q
-- that this was one case of thousands that were
19
under your --
20
A
Correct.
21
Q
-- authority, although a particularly sensitive and
22
high profile one, but the -- a -- the question to you is, do
23
you know what individualized assessment
did of
24
the victim witnesses?
25
A
I -- I can't speak to that.

=== Page 5 ===
Page 105
1
Q
Do you know whether he actually met with any of the
2
victim witnesses?
3
A
I can't speak to that.
4
Q
Do you know whether
went to West Palm
5
and sat down and actually went through the evidence as to
6
each one of the potential --
7
A
I --
8
Q
-- witnesses?
9
A
I can't speak to that.
10
Q
Do you know any of that information as to
11
?
12
A
Again, I can't -- I can't speak to that. I
13
would -- I would say that -- that
was first assistant,
14
and to the extent he relied on the criminal chief, that would
15
be -- he used to be criminal chief, and so --
16
Q
Right.
17
A
-- he would naturally view the role of criminal
18
chief as being important, and someone that would naturally
19
review matters before they went to the first assistant.
20
Q
Okay. So, when you talk -- when you were -- as you
21
recall, having these conversations about the -- the victim
22
issues, as -- as matters of evidence, it -- it -- you cannot
23
tell us what the basis for
analysis was?
24
A
I can't. I mean, as a general matter, I don't
25
recall the specific. As a general matter, when I talk to
EFTA00009333

=== Page 6 ===
Page 106
1
individuals about a case, I would assume that they had
2
informed themselves, and had done the diligence necessary to
3
have that discussion with me.
4
0
Do you remember him parsing out for you, or --
5
A
I --
6
2
-- you know --
7
A
-- I don't recall that --
8
Q
-- the individual --
9
A
-- that level of granularity.
10
&
All right. The -- to finish my sentence, to the
11
individual witnesses, and you're saying you don't.
12
A
Yeah.
13
Q
And by witness, I mean victim witness. Did you
14
ever sit down with
and have her present to
15
you each witness -- each victim as a potential witness, and
16
her individualized credibility issues, and how as a -- as a
17
prosecutor and an experienced trial attorney,
18
was going to overcome those issues?
19
A
I don't recall doing that, and as a matter of
20
general practice, particularly when it came to what I'll call
21
trial issues --
22
Q
Mm-hmm.
23
A
-- we had really experienced individuals in the
24
office, and that's not something that I would typically do on
25
this or other high profile cases, because they're the trial
EFTA00009334

=== Page 7 ===
Page 107
1
lawyers. They -- this is what they do. I would tend to
2
focus more on the legal issues.
3
0
All right. I want to stay with the -- the witness
4
issues, and the evidence of that for the moment.
5
A
Mm-hmm.
6
O
In Exhibit 3, this lively exchange between
7
and
,
she asks to make a presentation to you in the last
8
major paragraph of her e-mail on page four. She says, "I
9
would like to make a presentation to the U.S. Attorney,
10
/
and you, with our side of the investigation and a
11
revised indictment. The presentation will address the points
12
raised by Epstein's counsel, and will convince you of the
13
strength of the case." Bearing in mind that by this time,
14
and
had in front of them --
15
A
Right.
16
Q
-- her pros memo, her proposed indictment, this
17
analysis she did as evidenced in Exhibit 8, but also the
18
submissions from Jerry Lefcourt, and that -- that
had
19
not had a chance to actually make a presentation to them.
20
response is on page three, his last paragraph.
21
He chides
, and tells her that, "You may
22
not dictate the dates and people you will meet with about
23
this or any other case. If the U.S. Attorney or the first
24
assistant desired to meet with you, they will let you know."
25
She, in her final response on page one points out that she's
EFTA00009335

=== Page 8 ===
Page 108
1 not trying to dictate anything. She's just asking. Are you
2
aware that bear in mind, you didn't see --
3
A
Correct.
4
Q
-- Exhibit 3, were you aware that
5
very much wanted to make a presentation to you and to
6
and
about her case, and her evidence?
7
A
So, I don't recall this.
8
Q
By this, you mean --
9
A
I don't -- I don't recall being aware of this
10 request.
11
0
All right.
12
A
As a -- as a general matter, it seemed that there
13
was communications going back and forth. And so, she
14
certainly felt comfortable e-mailing me when she wanted to, I
15 guess is my point, rightly or wrongly. And so, I wasn't
16 aware of that request, and --
17
2
So, are you suggesting that she could easily have
18 e-mailed you and said, Alex, I really want to make a
19 presentation to you?
20
A
I'm not suggesting - let me -- what I'm suggesting
21
is from my perspective, there was a lot of communication in
22 this case, more than is typical. I wasn't aware of -- I
23 don't recall the request, but there was communication in this
24 case.
25
Q
What do you -- what do you mean by communication?
EFTA00009336

=== Page 9 ===
Page 109
1
I mean, there are a lot of e-mails, but --
2
A
There is. There are a lot of e-mails, right.
3
0
But a lot of them are because there are draft --
4
later on, we have drafts and so on, but --
5
A
I --
6
Q
-- we don't --
7
A
So, what I mean by that is, I do not recall an
8
impression that she wasn't being -- that she didn't have
9
access, or wasn't being heard.
10
Q
To you?
11
A
Correct.
12
0
You've already seen two e-mails here where she was
13
scolded pretty seriously, and in one case for approaching --
14
A
Correct.
15
Q
:
and you without
being
16
involved back when --
17
A
Correct.
18
Q
--
was crim chief, and then here, she --
19
the -- what
says to her is quite strong, isn't
20
it?
Would you have ever used that language to a subordinate?
21
A
You've seen my e-mails and my style.
22
Q
I think not.
23
A
I -- so, what I -- what I am saying is, from my
24
perspective at the time to the best of my recollection, this
25
was not a case where she was not -- -- where she was frozen out.
EFTA00009337

=== Page 10 ===
Page 110
1
This was a case where there was ample communication - --
2
MR.
: Well --
3
BY MS.
:
4
Q
Did
ever tell you, hey boss, this line
5
assistant, she's being a pain. You know, she's asked for to
6
make a presentation to you. Do you want to do it?
7
A
I -- I don't -- look, this was 12 years ago. I
8
don't recall it. Whether he did or not, I can't say, but I
9
don't recall it.
10
0
If he or
or even
had
11
directly asked you for that opportunity, would you have
12
entertained it? Would you have agreed to a presentation from
13
the line attorney?
14
A
As a general matter, if someone makes a direct --
15
saying, this is a case that I have worked, I need to sit down
16 and talk to you, I would have said, yes.
17
Q
Do you recall any occasion when a line assistant on
18
his or her own initiative came to you and made such a request
19
and you granted it?
20
A
I don't, because it rarely got to that level. I --
21
from my impression and my recollection, we had pretty good
22
communications in the office.
23
Q
All right, I'm sorry, I --
24
MR.
: That's okay.
25
MS.
: -- cut you off.
EFTA00009338

=== Page 11 ===
Page 111
1
BY MR.
:
2
Q
You've talked about needing to respect the chain of
3 command.
4
A
Right.
5
Q
Would there have been any repercussions for a line
6
assistant actually trying to approach you about this
7
presentation?
8
A
I would hope not. I mean, it's -- I think it's
9
important for line assistants to be respectful and to, you
10
know, let their supervisor know, and issues -- you know, and
11
to do it with -- with respect, and not go around supervisors,
12
but I would hope -- I mean --
13
Q
Well --
14
A
-- not --
15
Q
If she had raised it with a supervisor first, and
16
that supervisor said, no, that's not your place, would you
17
have expected her to have followed what the supervisor had
18
told her on that regard?
19
A
Fair. Look, fair point. I'm not aware of this e-
20
mail. I can't speak to that. AS a general matter, I would
21
-- you know, going back to where I started, you know, I would
22
at 6:00 o'clock walk around the office and say, how are
23
things going? What case are you working on? In part,
24
because I thought it was important to.
25
BY MS.
:
EFTA00009339

=== Page 12 ===
Page 112
1
&
Did you wander up down -- up to West Palm and do
2
that too?
3
A
Less often, but yes.
4
BY MR.
:
5
Q
You talked a little bit about the experience of
6
your senior staff.
7
A
Right.
8
Q
What do you know about the experience
9
had in handling these types of cases?
10
A
You -- when you say these types, you mean --
11
Q
Sex crimes --
12
A
I --
13
Q
-- or --
14
A
I can't.
15
Q
-- cases involving children --
16
A
I can't --
17
Q
-- or child victims?
18
A
I can't speak to that. I don't know.
19
Q
What about
?
20
A
I can't speak to that.
21
Q
Or
?
22
A
I can't speak to that.
23
BY MS.
:
24
Q
But you do know that
had
25
substantial experience with child sex crimes?
EFTA00009340

=== Page 13 ===
Page 113
1
A I --
2
Q
You named her PSA coordinator.
3
A
I know that she had experience with prior cases.
4
Q
All right.
5
A
Yeah.
6
Q
Okay. We're going to go for half an hour more,
7
then we'll take our break, and then we'll --
8
A Okay.
9
0
-- come back. I -- and we will get back to that
10
other piece of the evidence and the legal issues --
11
A Right.
12
Q
-- and then -- and then we'll spend a lot of time
13
on the alternatives. Haven't forgotten that. In June of
14 2007, there was a meeting that defense counsel requested of
15
the sort of next level up from
.
In other words,
16
they had already made a --
17
A
Right.
18
0
-- presentation to the line assistant, and her
19
supervisor. They wanted to come to Miami and talk to, in
20
this case,
and
--
21
A
Mm-hmm.
22
Q
-- and they did meet with them. Were you aware --
23
do you have a recollection of whether you were aware that
24
they there was such a meeting?
25
A
It -- so, I don't have a recollection, but it rings
EFTA00009341

=== Page 14 ===
Page 114
1
a bell. I don't know if that distinction is a fair one.
2
Q
Well, I can -- I may help amplify the bell a little
3
bit. One of the defense attorneys who was present there in
4
addition to Gerald Lefcourt, Roy Black, and Lillian Sanchez
5
was Alan Dershowitz.
6
A
Yeah.
7
Q
Does that ring a bell?
8
A
So, it does. There's --
9
Q Okay.
10
A
I -- I can't say it's a recollection, but it sounds
11
like there -- it sounds right, and in my usual course, once
12
was meeting with someone, he would typically have let me
13
know.
14
Q
All right. All right, and where would such a
15
meeting take place? Would it be in
office? Was it
16
big enough? Or would you use the executive conference room?
17
A
Based on the number of people, almost definitely
18
the executive conference room.
19
Q
And is that -- do people have to go by your office
20
to get there?
21
A
They do not.
22
Q
Okay, and would you in a case like this make a --
23
as you said a moment ago, pop your head in --
24
A
Right.
25
Q
-- and say hello?
EFTA00009342

=== Page 15 ===
Page 115
1
A
Right. As a typical matter, I probably would not,
2
because then it very rapidly turns into a meeting with me as
3
opposed to a --
4
Q
Mm-hmm.
5
A
-- meeting with --
6
0
Mm-hmm. Okay.
7
A
If that makes sense.
8
Q
There was some written submissions also submitted.
9
Pretty substantial ones. These addressing more of the legal
10
issues --
11
A
Mm-hmm.
12
0
-- both before and after this. Did someone -- and
13
if so, who -- brief you about what happened at the meeting,
14
and what was contained in the written submissions?
15
A
So, I do not recall a briefing. I would assume
16
that, again, based on practice, there's a senior level
17
meeting in the office. Based on practice,
would have
18
told me, and then afterwards, he would have said this is what
19
happened.
20
Q
All right, but you have no actual recollection of
21
what happened in this case?
22
A
I have no actual recollection of -- other than the
23
meeting sounding familiar, I have no recollection.
24
Q
So, Exhibit 50 in this packet, it's almost at the
25
end. It's the next to last, really, is a letter that
EFTA00009343

=== Page 16 ===
Page 116
1
offered to the DAG -- the then DAG --
2
A
Yes.
3
0
-- in June of 2008, a whole year later. The DAG,
4
Deputy Attorney General Mark Filip, and this is -- you
5
certainly recall that there was an appeal, if you will, a
6
small appeal to the DAG's office --
7
A
Right.
8
Q
-- by defense counsel, and
submitted a
9
fairly substantial accounting of what had gone before in the
10 case, and he also submitted a number of other documents
11
relevant to that.
12
He says on page three that at this June 26th, 2007
13 meeting, which he characterizes arguments, legal and factual,
14 were presented against a federal indictment, and
15
writes that, "The arguments and written materials provided by
16
the defense were examined by the SDFL and rejected." Do
17
you -- is that consistent with any understanding you have of
18
what happened at this meeting?
19
A
So, I don't recall, so I'm going to speculate, and
20
the speculation is that by the time this happened, we were
21
fairly far along in how we were viewing this matter.
22
Q
This being 2008, or --
23
A
No, June.
24
Q
June 26th, 2007. Okay.
25
A
You know, and as I reviewed the documents, I tried
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=== Page 17 ===
Page 117
1
to establish a timeline, but clearly, by July 31st, we had --
2
you know, we had sort of concluded how we were approaching
3 it.
4
And so, I'm going to speculate that when he said
5
the arguments and written materials provided to defense
6
counsel were examined by the SDFL and rejected, it was they
7
asked us to drop the matter, and we said we're not dropping
8
the matter.
9
Q Okay. Okay, and by the way, is -- just to clean
10
this up, this letter was -- to the DAG, was signed by
11
under your type name, as is --
12
A
Right.
13
Q
-- standard but you're not cc'd on it. Do you --
14
do you recall why you didn't sign this letter? why it was
15
sent by
--
16
A
I --
17
Q
--
?
18
A
I do not recall.
19
Q
I just -- that's a -- that's a point of interest.
20
and so, I'll draw your attention to --
21
A
All right.
22
Q
-- Exhibit 49, which is actually dated the day
23
prior, that is, June 2, 2008, and this is a -- an e-mail to
24
you from
, who is -- was and is the ethics --
25
A
Yes.
EFTA00009345

=== Page 18 ===
Page 118
1
Q
-- officer for the U.S. Attorney's Office, correct?
2
Reporting back to you an assessment by the executive office
3
of U.S. Attorneys general counsel's office that they did not
4
see you as having an either actual or apparent conflict of
5
interest that would necessitate your recusal from the Epstein
6
matter by virtue of the fact that you apparent, according to
7
this, intended to seek employment with Harvard Law School.
8
A
Right, or was considering seeking.
9
Q
Was considering. All right. Right. Should you
10
seek employment, it says. So, is it -- is it reasonable for
11
us to infer that this potential recusal --
12
A
Right.
13
OF
-- was pending at the time the letter to Mark Filip
14
was being drafted, and that's why it went out over
15
signature, and without you as a CC?
16
A
So, I would not infer that.
17
0
Okay.
18
A
In part because it was potential -- and in part
19
because
--
had the facts at his disposal, and was
20
the natural -- this was a very detailed letter. I did not
21
feel that -- I'm speculating here -- as a general matter,
22
things don't have to go out under my name, and some letters
23
went out under his name, and some letters went out under my
24
name, and the ones that went out under my name tended to be
25
ones that I had more authorship in, and the ones that went
EFTA00009346

=== Page 19 ===
Page 119
1
out under his name in this case were the ones that he had
2
more authorship in. And so, I would just say that this was
3
the continuing course of that.
4
Q
Okay. Thank you. Minor technical issue.
5
BY MS.
:
6
Q
Would you have read the letter before it went out?
7
A
Probably. I would say in my usual course, he would
8
have shown it to me, but not always.
9
Q
Not always letters that would have been sent to the
10
Deputy Attorney General's Office, or just letters in general?
11
A
Well, he would have -- I think he would have shown
12
this to me because it's going to the deputy's office. The
13
flip side is, I trust
.
I think he's a professional.
14
Something that I -- so, an important distinction to
15
draw, I remember talking to an AUSA that had spent time at
16
main justice, and contrasting the experience of an AUSA with
17
the experience of a trial lawyer here, and sort of the line
18
was you can't send a letter from main justice without three
19
letters of approval, whereas an AUSA in their case typically
20
doesn't even get approval from their line supervisor. And
21
so, as a usual matter, particularly in this case,
would
22
run letters by me.
23
That doesn't mean that every letter had to be run
24
by me, and you know, I was certainly aware that the letter
25
was being transmitted. I was aware of the appeal to D.C.
I
EFTA00009347

=== Page 20 ===
Page 120
1
had comfort in what we had done, and so I thought the appeal
2
would be fine, and if I was out of the office, or if there
3
was some reason that I wasn't going to be consulted,
was
4
quite capable of doing it without my review.
5
Q
But if you were in the office, it would have been
6
typical for him to run it by you first?
7
A
It would have been.
8
BY MS.
:
9
Q
Did you read the letter in preparation for --
10
A
I did.
11
Q
-- this, and is there anything in it that is --
12
that in your view is not accurate?
13
A
I think it's accurate. I think the letter, as it
14
should be, is an advocacy piece for what the office has done
15
as opposed to a, on the one hand, on the other hand, analysis
16
piece. But at this point, we're defending the actions of the
17
office, and I think it appropriately should be an advocacy
18 piece.
19
Q
All right. Do you disagree with any of the points
20
of advocacy, or the points made in advocacy?
21
A
We -- we'd have to go through it --
22
Q
All right.
23
A
-- paragraph by paragraph.
24
Q
Okay. Okay.
25
A
But --
EFTA00009348

=== Page 21 ===
Page 121
1
Q
But nothing struck you so much that you --
2
A
I think --
3
0
-- recall?
4
A
-- I think he fairly presented the totality of
5
everything to the DAG for the DAG to review her for whoever
6
the DAG designated, and I think that was -- that was an
7
appropriate presentation.
8
Q
All right. Thank you. So, now I'd like to launch
9
into -- and before we break for lunch, sort of the core
10
question.
11
A
Mm-hmm.
12
Q
Which we addressed a little bit earlier, and that
13
is who at the U.S. Attorney's Office made the decision to
14
resolve this case with an offer of a two year state plea, and
15 why?
16
A
Right. So, how we got to the two years, I can't
17
tell you, because I can give you my general impression.
18
Ultimately, all the cases in the U.S. Attorney's Office were
19
under me.
20
Ultimately, I saw what we'll call that, you know,
21
three pronged resolution, two years -- you know, registration
22
and restitution, and ultimately that was approved on my
23 authority.
24
Q
So, who came -- did you -- did you come up with it?
25
Was it your idea --
EFTA00009349

=== Page 22 ===
Page 122
1
A I --
2
0
-- of an issue?
3
A
I don't -- I don't know. The -- this is
4
reconstructing conversations -- I'm going to speculate now.
5
This was not, let's all get in a room and figure out the
6
resolution in the next half hour.
7
Q
Mm-hmm.
8
A
But this was a course as things are discussed and
9
there's a back and forth over the course of some days or a
10
week or two, and then people get together and discuss, and a
11
view develops, and then the office proceeds with that. But
12 ultimately - -- let me -- let me just sort of push back. Look,
13 ultimately, I approved it, and so, I --
14
Q Okay.
15
A
-- accept that. I'm not -- I'm not pushing away
16
responsibility for it. I'm just saying I can't recall how we
17 got to, for example, two years. I can speculate as to
18 particular parts of it, but I can't -- you know, but
19
ultimately I'm not pushing away responsibility.
20
Q
I understand, and we're going to delve into that --
21
A
Right.
22
Q
-- that two years -- shortly, but I want to turn
23
back to Exhibit No. 3, in which sort of the statement that
24
launches this -- what I keep calling a lively exchange, is on
25 page four, the -- the statement from
/ and this
EFTA00009350

=== Page 23 ===
Page 123
1
is in response to an inquiry from
to her management,
2
not including you, about what conversations any of them has
3
had with defense counsel --
4
A
Right.
5
Q
-- about any resolution, because her plan was to
6
talk to Lilly Ann Sanchez about working a plea to federal
7
time concurrent to the state -- whatever the state time was,
8
and in response,
tells her, "I told Lilly that a state
9
plea with jail time and sex offender status may satisfy the
10
USA," meaning the U.S. Attorney --
11
A
Right.
12
OF
-- I believe. So, that's a -- that's a closed
13
quote after USA. Had he discussed that with you? How did he
14
know that that might satisfy you?
15
A
So, I don't recall. I can -- I can speculate based
16
on Mr.
course of conduct, I don't think he would
17
have raised that possibility in a case of this profile
18
without having discussed it with me.
19
Q
But you have no specific --
20
A
I have no --
21
2
-- recollection?
22
A
-- specific recollection, but I don't think he
23
would have done that without having come by and said.
24
Q
All right. At this point, bearing in mind that you
25
don't have any specific recollection, at this point, do you
EFTA00009351

=== Page 24 ===
Page 124
1
believe you had any understanding of what amount of jail time
2
was in play at this point when
tells Lilly Ann
3
Sanchez - --
4
A
I can't pinpoint that timeline --
5
Q
All right.
6
A
-- to that degree.
7
Q
All right.
8
A
Of accuracy.
9
Q
He also says later in this e-mail that he told this
10
to Lilly Ann Sanchez a couple of weeks prior before the June
11
26th meeting.
12
A
Correct.
13
0
All right. Were you aware that
had
14
been communicating directly with Sanchez about the case, and
15
specifically that he represented that you might go for a
16
state disposition if it included jail time and sex offender
17
registration?
18
A
I -- I don't recall whether I was aware or not. I
19
recall at some point adopting the concept of jail time plus
20
registration, and then plus restitution. And so, I don't
21
know when that would have happened. Let me also speculate
22
that the U.S. Attorney might go -- could also refer to, this
23 is being talked about, no final decision has been made.
24
0
Right. If
had made that informal
25 discussion comment to Lilly Ann Sanchez without having told
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=== Page 25 ===
Page 125
1
you, without having gotten your clearance ahead of time to
2
tell her that, would that -- would that surprise you, or
3
would you have expected him to consult with you about whether
4
it was okay to go ahead and raise this?
5
A
So, as a general matter, yes, but -- and let me --
6
let me explain that. AUSAs on occasion, and because this is
7
a high profile -- higher profile case -- a criminal chief may
8
run an idea across opposing counsel and say, look, I don't
9
have authorization.
10
I don't know how the office will react, but it's
11
certainly possible that X, Y, or Z may work out. And that's
12
a very different conversation than, you know, the office will
13
accept.
14
And so, a lot of that really depends on how that
15
conversation goes, and you know, certainly if he's
16
representing my view, I would expect him to check on what my
17
view is, if he's, as criminal chief, saying, this is
18
something that I could support. I don't know how the office
19
will react, that may -- you know, but I can run it up the
20
flagpole, that might be a different type of conversation.
21
Q
Okay, and did you know Lilly Ann Sanchez?
22
A
I did. She was an AUSA in the office.
23
0
And she left about a month after you came on board?
24
A
Was it that -- was it that quick?
25
Q
That's our information, yes.
EFTA00009353

=== Page 26 ===
Page 126
1
A
Okay.
2
0
Although she apparently remained a periodic
3 present.
4
A
Hence, the wasn't that quick.
5
Q
Did you know that she'd been
deputy
6
at major crimes?
7
A
I don't remember that.
8
Q
All right. Did you -- what did -- what did you
9
remember about her? And had you had any dealings with her
10
after she left the office up to this point?
11
A
So, I remember that she was in the office, that she
12
was a senior attorney. Whether within the management
13
structure or not, I -- I didn't recollect until you just
14
raised it, and that I can't swear to it, but it rings a bell
15
that she was in major crimes, and she was someone that you
16
would see at bar functions that would --
17
O
Mm-hmm.
18
A
-- she -- she was active in the local bar, and I
19
would see her on occasion at a bar function and say hello.
20
Q
All right. Did you encounter her in connection
21
with a case, to your recollection, in the period before
22
Epstein?
23
A
I'm hesitating not to avoid, but I'm running
24
through my --
25
Q
Mm-hmm.
EFTA00009354

=== Page 27 ===
Page 127
1
A
Not that I recall.
2
Q
What's your impression of her as a -- as a
3
practitioner?
4
A
She did -- she did quite well after she left the
5
office. She set up -- I think she set up her own practice.
6
Q
At the time -- at this time, she was with something
7
called Fowler White Burnett.
8
A
Okay, so --
9
Q
She --
10
A
-- she went to Fowler White.
11
Q
-- subsequently --
12
A
She subsequently set up her own practice, and I
13
thought she's done well for herself.
14
Q
Okay. Were you aware that
had a close
15
personal relationship with Lilly Ann Sanchez, both because
16
they had worked together as chief and deputy chief --
17
A
Mm-hmm.
18
Q
-- in major crimes, but also because they'd had a
19
dating relationship sometime prior?
20
A
I don't recall them having dated, but I don't --
21
Q
Do you recall knowing that they had dated in the
22
past?
23
A
I don't recall knowing that, and in all candor,
24
that's not the kind of thing I ask about.
25
Q
But in this case with her representation of
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=== Page 28 ===
Page 128
1
somebody in a matter being ultimately supervised by
2
, would you have expected
to disclose to you that
3
he'd had a prior romantic relationship with Lilly Ann
4
Sanchez, a member of Epstein's defense team, if only to
5
address a potential appearance of impropriety or conflict of
6
interest?
7
A
I think some of that might have depended on how
8
recently. Was it ten years ago? Was it two years ago? If
9
they were in the supervisory chain that this happened, that
10
could raise other -- other issues. So, if to the extent --
11
so, for example,
disclosed to me a potential conflict --
12
0
Mm-hmm.
13
A
-- to the extent that these arise, if there is a
14
potential conflict, I'd like to know. I was aware of
15
conflict. I said, keep going.
16
Q
And in fact,
, you're talking about the
17
Herman --
18
A
Yes.
19
0
-- connection, the prior --
20
A
Yes.
21
0
-- short lived law firm connection. Are you aware
22
that
in fact vetted that through
, your
23
ethics person?
24
A
I am -- I don't recall that independently, but I
25
recall knowing about it. He may have told me he vetted it
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=== Page 29 ===
Page 129
1
through
.
is highly respected in the office,
2
and --
3
0
Mm-hmm.
4
A
-- that would be the appropriate --
5
2
So, are you also aware that
raised,
6
again with
, the potential, again, appearance of a
7
conflict of interest, or appearance of impropriety, because
8
of his supervision of the Epstein case, and his concurrent
9
close friendship with Mike Tein, who was an attorney who was
10
representing Epstein, as well as Guy Lewis, former U.S.
11
Attorney?
12
A
So, I was not aware of that.
13
0
You were not aware of it, but -- but I guess what
14
I'm -- what I'm noting is that both
and
15
perceived appearance issues, and went through the process
16
that's provided for them to get the blessing to go ahead and
17
proceed with the case by the -- the blessing by the ethics
18
expert --
19
A
Right.
20
Q
-- but
apparently did not in this case
21
vis a vis Lilly Ann Sanchez.
22
A Yeah.
23
0
Does that surprise you, or disappoint you, or
24
perplex you, or do you care?
25
A
I would want to know more.
EFTA00009357

=== Page 30 ===
Page 130
1
Q
Right.
2
A
But certainly it would provide -- I would want to
3
know more before saying I'm disappointed, but again, was it
4
ten years ago? Was it two years ago? What's the
5
continuing -- there are a lot of facts, but certainly it --
6
that's the kind of -- it's the kind of discussion one would
7
typically have with
-
8
Q
And in this case, what we're talking about is an
9
informal conversation, or informal discussion, to use
10
own term, with Sanchez as opposed to any of the
11
other attorneys in Epstein's team about a particular
12
resolution that we're going to spend all afternoon talking
13
about, because it has some problematic aspects. Okay? So,
14
you see why we're --
15
A
I get it. No, I get it.
16
Q Okay.
17
BY MR.
:
18
Q
So, before we break, I'm -- should he have talked
19
about this potential resolution with the line assistant
20
before actually making it?
21
A
In a typical case, yes. So, in a typical case, I
22
fostered communication. I would -- I would come -- I'd get
23
involved in cases, but we'd want to know what the line
24
assistant thinks, and they can agree or disagree, but we'd
25 want -- we'd want input.
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=== Page 31 ===
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1
BY MS.
:
2
0
What do you make of this really acid tone between
3
and
? Between
and
in this Exhibit 3
4 exchange? I mean,
is really - -- as I read it, it's
5 pretty strong.
6
A
I -- I can't -- I -- I'm not sure what to make of
7 it.
8
Q
All right. All right. There are a couple of --
9
let's -- could we go off the record for a split second?
10
(Off the record.)
11
BY MS.
:
12
0
Okay, back on the record. Going back to Exhibit
13 No. 3, there are a few things here that we think are
14 important to raise with you, albeit you not having seen this
15 at the time.
16
says that the she complains
17 about this soft -- that's my term -- plea offer that
18 extended to Epstein through Lilly Ann Sanchez. She says that
19 such an offer is completely unacceptable to the FBI, ICE, the
20 victims, and me, meaning
. Did you have an
21
understanding of what the FBI's position about prosecuting
22 this case was?
23
A
My recollection of interaction with the FBI is with
24
who was the SAC, and as I recall, he supported
25 the eventual direction of this case.
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=== Page 32 ===
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1
Q
Is he the individual who you identify I believe in
2
actually your -- your attorney's written response as the SAC
3
who called you to congratulate you about the --
4
A
He is.
5
Q
-- the case? About the result?
6
A
Yes.
7
0
And was SAC
-- in that same written
8
response from your attorney, there's a mention that he was
9
present at many meetings on this case?
10
A
He was present at, at least some, and in part that
11
was at my request, because this was a high enough profile
12
case that I wanted to bring him into this.
13
Q
So, the -- we know he was present at the December
14
14, 2007 meeting, right?
15
A
Yeah.
16
Q
With Ken Starr and company. He is not present
17
at -- to -- according to our investigation, at any other case
18
with defense counsel. Others are. His ASAC,
is
19 present.
20
A
So, recollections aren't nearly as good as
21
documents. I don't recall the December meeting. I would
22
have said that he was present at the September meeting, but
23
it may be that I am, because this was so long ago, mixing the
24
two.
25
Q
Okay.
EFTA00009360

=== Page 33 ===
Page 133
1
A
Because I thought he would have come to the
2
September meeting.
3
Q
No, according to all the information we have, just
4
so you know --
5
A
Right.
6
Q
--
was there as ASAC, but not --
7
actually, I'm not sure she was at the -- at any rate, she
8
was -- she was --
9
A
Right.
10
0
-- he was present,
was present at the
11
December meeting only.
12
A
Right.
13
Q
So, just so --
14
A
Fair.
15
Q
Okay. Would he have been present at meetings other
16
than with defense counsel meetings about this case?
17
A
Typically no. Typically, he and I would have
18
talked on the phone or had discussion, and I know that he was
19
aware of the matter.
20
0
So --
21
A
I recall his being aware of the matter, and
22
generally positive as to the direction that we were going.
23
Q
By the direction or the eventual outcome?
24
A
The eventual outcome.
25
Q
All right. So, what about the prosecution? Do you
EFTA00009361

=== Page 34 ===
Page 134
1
know what the FBI's view was about the prosecution?
2
A
I can't speak to the timeline. I would have -- and
3
I'm contradicting the documents here, but I would have -- if
4
you had asked me, said that he was present at the September
5
meeting, and was aware of the terms that were presented at
6
the September meeting. Clearly, I'm --
7
Q Right.
8
A
-- my recollection is incorrect, and I take that
9
for what it is.
10
Q
Just to finish on -- with this point though, my
11
question was an understanding of the FBI's position of the
12 case, not the ultimate disposition. In other words, as of --
13
as of the date of Exhibit 3, there was no deal on the table.
14
So, the question is, what was the FBI's view about the case?
15
A So -- so, I -- I'm not trying to be difficult. At
16
some point, when you say view, the FBI, to my recollection,
17
thought that what Mr. Epstein did was sordid and disgusting
18
and that we should proceed. How we proceeded, I don't recall
19
having hearing specific views as to the how as opposed to
20
the, we should.
21
2
All right. Let's -- thank you. Let's take a
22
break, 45 minutes. Thank you.
23
(Off the record.)
24
BY MS.
:
25
Q
All right. We're going to go back on the record.
EFTA00009362

=== Page 35 ===
Page 135
1
We're beginning after the break at 1:30 in the afternoon.
2
Thank you.
3
A
Before get started --
4
Q
Yes.
5
A
-- you referenced an e-mail from
that wasn't
6
part of the packet.
7
Q
Correct.
8
A
Is that something that I could see and review, or
9
is there discomfort on that?
10
0
Yes. No, I am not -- as long as we make it on the
11
record. Do you -- do you need to do it now, or can we do it
12
during the next break?
13
A
It depends how long -- how long is it? It would
14
just take --
15
Q
One page.
16
A
-- a minute, if you don't mind.
17
Q
Do you want to go off the record while Mr.
18
Acosta --
19
(Off the record.)
20
BY MS.
:
21
Q
All right. On the record again. For the record,
22
Mr. Acosta has just reviewed and e-mail from
23
to
,
, and
24
dated July 18, 2007 at 2:07 p.m. It's one that I described
25
to Mr. Acosta a moment -- this morning. Do you have any
EFTA00009363

=== Page 36 ===
Page 136
1 comments?
2
A
I don't.
3
0
All right. Before we broke, we were -- I mentioned
4
your statement about SAC
having attended many
5
meetings. That to be clear was a representation you made in
6
your March 2007 letter to the Daily Beast, not the written
7 response.
8
Looking briefly at -- back at Exhibit 3 and
9
-- you don't have to read it yourself.
10
representation that in her view the plea offer
11
was completely unacceptable to the victims. Do you -- do you
12
believe that she was correct in her view that the victims'
13
views should have been solicited before a plea offer was
14 made?
15
A
So, I would have to think that was one through.
16
There were concerns -- and I don't know about the timeline
17
about communications with the victims. They're sort of laid
18
out in the
affidavit. So, whether or not victims'
19
views were elicited is something I think was the focus of the
20
trial team and not something that I was focused on at least
21
at this time.
22
Q
But do you believe as a matter of sort of principle
23
that the views of victims should be elicited before a plea
24
offer --
25
A
Right.
EFTA00009364

=== Page 37 ===
Page 137
1
Q
-- is made?
2
A
So, as a general matter, yes.
3
2 Okay.
4
A
I think that the -- the reason I'm pushing back is
5
because you're saying plea offer, and the CVRA does talk to
6
plea offers as opposed to a situation where deferring
7
prosecution in favor of a state is a very different thing
8
than a plea offer, and at the time, that was not a, it must.
9
That was a depending on the facts and circumstances, that's a
10
judgment call. At least that's how the department, to my
11
understanding, viewed it.
12
0
And was it also your view that it would have, as a
13
general matter, it's a better practice or better approach to
14
talk to the victims before?
15
A
As a general practice, yes.
16
Q
All right. Do you think that would have been
17
particularly important in this case where the proposal
18
involved sending the case back to the state, which the
19
victims were aware had already mishandled the case to begin
20
with?
21
A
So, a few -- there are -- there are a few things in
22
that question that I think are packed. Whether the victims
23
were aware and were of the view, from my perspective and my
24
recollection, were of the view that the state had mishandled
25 the case, I can't speak to.
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=== Page 38 ===
Page 138
1
Some of the victims were, to my recollection,
2
exonerating him. There was concern that some of the victims
3
were more on his side than on the prosecution's side. And
4
so, that judgement call of which victims are notified and how
5
much I think is something that really is a judgement call
6
that needs to be done almost on a case by case basis by
7
individuals that are aware of sort of the facts and
8
circumstances surrounding each victim.
9
In the general -- in a general case, you want to
10
have fulsome communication. I can understand in cases where
11
victims might be giving exonerating information, where -- or,
12
there is restitution at stake, that could be different.
13
2
And by the people involved, are you talking at
14
the -- at the trial team level?
15
A
At the trial team level with whatever appropriate
16
supervisors --
17
Q
Mm-hmm.
18
A
-- are engaged in the victim notification issues.
19
0
And in this case, that would not include you, is
20
that correct?
21
A
That -- I don't recall cases where I got -- where I
22
became part of the victim notification judgements.
23
BY MS.
:
24
2
Did you ever issue an instruction to the trial team
25
that they should not consult with the victims before the NPA
EFTA00009366

=== Page 39 ===
Page 139
1
was signed?
2
A
So, not that I recall. I know that there's some
3
instances where after the NPA was signed, I said, you know,
4
I'm directing that we withhold notification for five days, or
5
X period of time to work this out.
6
But before the NPA was signed, I don't recall -- in
7 all candor, I don't recall discussions about victim
8
notification until after the NPA was signed. I don't know if
9 there's e-mail traffic before the NPA was signed, but I don't
10
recall victim notification issues until after the NPA was
11
signed.
12
Q Okay.
13
BY MR.
:
14
0
And I just -- one more question on this topic is
15
that prior to -- we interviewed other people, obviously, in
16
this --
17
A
Mm-hmm.
18
O
-- case, and we interviewed Ms.
, and one
19
of the things that she told us, she has a recall of a -- of a
20
meeting with you present, Mr.
, and Mr.
, where
21
this issue of victim notification was discussed in the
22
timeframe of prior to the FBI, and at that meeting, she was
23 specifically instructed that we are not going to talk about
24
it with the victims. Do you recall that meeting?
25
A
I don't -- I don't recall. If that's her
EFTA00009367

=== Page 40 ===
Page 140
1
recollection, that's her recollection. I don't -- I don't
2
recall that. I -- I recall knowing that there were issues
3
around victim notification. I recall, particularly after the
4
NPA was signed, I recall efforts, I believe, to notify as it
5
was being signed -- to notify the victims of the upcoming
6
state plea.
7
O
Mm-hmm.
8
A
And I recall discussions -- if not discussions --
9
let me not say discussions -- a general concern about the
10
victim notification, what does that do? Because the victim
11
is also a witness, and a --
12
0
Mm-hmm.
13
A
-- potential witness, and in some cases and adverse
14
witness.
And so, how does all that balance out?
15
&
Okay. Well, we're going to drill down into
16
those --
17
A
Right.
18
Q
-- post-NPA issues later on.
19
A
Right.
20
Q
Just now, focusing on --
21
A
Right.
22
Q
-- pre-NPA, before it's signed, when the
23
negotiations are going back and forth.
24
A
Right.
25
Q
You have memory of this topic coming up?
EFTA00009368

=== Page 41 ===
Page 141
1
A
I don't recall discussing the victim notification
2
issues.
3
0
Okay, and what would your response be though to --
4
are you -- are you aware of the CVRA litigation that went on?
5
A
Yes.
6
0
From Judge Marra?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
So, one of the issues that comes up in Judge
9
Marra's decision is, he made a finding that the government
10
violated the CVRA because they didn't inform -- consult with
11
the victims --
12
A Right.
13
0
-- prior to signing the NPA, and there is a
14
perception, or he -- from his opinion that the government did
15
this -- failed to communicate that in order to eventually
16
keep the victims in the dark and protect the resolution. Why
17
is that an incorrect assumption?
18
A
And so -- so, I would say that
sets out her
19
reasoning in her affidavit. She talks about --
20
BY MS.
:
21
Q
Are you referring to the -- her 2017 affidavit?
22
A
Her 2017 affidavit. She talks about -- I believe
23
she notified at least some victims, and it became an issue,
24
and there's concern - you know, you have this NPA.
25
Whether -- whether or not that NPA will ultimately remain is
EFTA00009369

=== Page 42 ===
Page 142
1
a very open question, because from our office's expectations,
2
we expected him to plead shortly after that, and he did not.
3
And so, are we going to trial or are we not is a
4
very open question, and I think there is -- has to be
5
discretion, where there is no legal requirement. There has
6
to be discretion to judge how much you can tell the victims
7
and when.
8
BY MR.
:
9
Q
Okay, just -- just one other point, and this is
10
that -- we've reviewed --
11
A
Yeah.
12
0
-- Ms.
declaration, and the
13
notifications that she's referring to there, those
14
discussions take place after the signing of the NPA. So,
15
we're just talking about here still --
16
A
Right.
17
O
-- just the pre-NPA --
18
A
Yeah.
19
Q
-- pre-signing of that. So, does that change your
20
answer at all?
21
A
Again, I don't -- I don't recall the victim
22
notification being issued before the NPA. I recall a lot of
23
discussions afterwards. I don't recall. That doesn't mean
24
they didn't happen. That just means I don't recall them.
25
Q
Was there any concern with you or among any of the
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=== Page 43 ===
Page 143
1
other people involved in this negotiation phase that if the
2
victims were to find out that we are negotiating this NPA
3
that it will blow up the NPA, that it will cause us trouble
4
in some way?
5
A
Our -- my focus before the NPA was signed was, here
6
are -- here are these terms. You know, and then for the
7
team, go negotiate this. And so, from my perspective, it was
8
much more of a, what are the terms, than the victim
9
notification issues around that.
10
BY MS.
:
11
Q
Right, but just to follow up --
12
A
Right.
13
0
-- did you hear any discussion amongst the people
14
that you were dealing with --
15
A
I --
16
Q
-- that they were afraid that the victims might
17
raise such objections, or go to the press that this whole
18
thing would be -- you know, come to a -- come to a halt?
19
A
So, I tried to think -- I don't recall -- I believe
20
we notified the victims in advance of the state hearing so
21
that they would be aware. We didn't notify them before we
22
signed the NPA to my recollection, but we certainly notified
23
them of the state hearing. And so, I was aware generally of
24
what was being done, but the NPA and what we -- you know, the
25
NPA was the focus, not the victim notification --
EFTA00009371

=== Page 44 ===
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1
MS.
: When --
2
THE WITNESS: -- part of that.
3
MS.
: -- when you talk about -- go ahead.
4
MR.
: We -- we're going to get into the
5
plea --
6
THE WITNESS: Right.
7
MR.
: -- and what we're --
8
MS.
: All right.
9
THE WITNESS: Right.
10
MR.
:
-- a little bit later on.
11
THE WITNESS: Right.
12
BY MR.
:
13
Q
Just one -- can I just direct you to --
14
A
Yeah.
15
Q
-- document number 15?
16
MS.
: Exhibit 15?
17
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
18
BY MR.
:
19
Q
Okay. So, do you -- that was an e-mail that is
20
from Ms.
to
, then forwarded to you?
21
A
Yeah.
22
Q
Do you see the reference in there where she
23
mentions that she spoke to
, or
24
reminded her -- where is it?
25
MS.
:
It's in the second paragraph --
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=== Page 45 ===
Page 145
1
THE WITNESS: Yeah, no, I --
2
MS.
: -- in the middle.
3
THE WITNESS: I see it.
4
MR.
: The middle --
5
THE WITNESS: It's highlighted.
6
BY MR.
:
7
Q
Could you just read that? The agents and I have
8
not reached out to the victims to get their approval, which
9 as
politely reminded me, is required under the law. Do
10 you -- do you -- do you recall that e-mail?
11
A I -- again, I don't recall this specific e-mail.
12
My recollection is a view that there is no requirement to
13 notify, because it's not a plea, it's deferring in favor of a
14 state prosecution.
15
And therefore, it becomes a discretionary issue,
16 and what notification is appropriate is really a function of
17 how you interact with - with victims who are also potential
18 witnesses, and I was aware I support what the office did.
19 I'm not backing away from it.
20
I'm just saying I can't, 12 years later,
21
reconstruct what the thought process was other than there was
22 no legal obligation. It was a discretionary issue, and this
23 is how the discretion was exercised.
24
Q
But did -- do you remember -- so, there's two
25 things. Any do you remember any discussions coming up
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1
about the topic of what we have to do as far as notification
2
in the pre-NPA negotiations?
3
A
I -- again, I really don't. I know there was a lot
4
of discussion after the NPA. I don't recall pre-NPA
5
discussions on this.
6
0
Last question on this.
7
A
Sure.
8
MS.
:
By him.
9
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
10
BY MR.
:
11
Q
You're getting at least forwarded to you an e-mail
12
from the trial attorney in the case showing that she is
13
concerned about the notification issue, and she's raising at
14
least the -- referencing the head of --
15
A
Right.
16
Q
-- CEOS about this issue. Did this ring any bells
17
to you?
Raise any --
18
A
So, from this, I would infer that a discussion was
19
had as to what the obligations had -- were, and whether we
20
had to or not, because -- so, I think it's fair to infer she
21
is, you know, e-mailing my first assistant.
22
I don't know what the attachment here -- oh, the
23
attachment here is the term sheet, so to speak, and my first
24
assistant is forwarding it to me in large part so that I get
25
the attachment, and I think from here, it's fair to infer
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1
that -- that some conversation or discussion was had. I
2
don't remember the conversation or discussion.
3
My focus was on the terms. I'm willing to accept
4
that the conversation was had. My recollection of the
5
obligations under the CVRA is that they did not attach,
6
because this was not an indictment, it was not a plea, and
7
that it was entirely discretionary how we proceeded, and
8
therefore how you proceed is a function of, should you notify
9
victims?
10
Yes, but there are concerns because they're also
11
witnesses. There are concerns because we are going out of
12
our way to provide for restitution, and all of that played
13
into a complex calculus.
14
0
That was it.
15
BY MS.
:
16
Q
So, you said that there was a view that there's no
17
requirement to notify the victims. Who was that view coming
18
from?
19
A
I can't -- I can't speak to person A, B, or C. I
20
can say that if -- if the office thought there was a legal
21
obligation, there are too many professionals involved in this
22
that if they thought there was a legal obligation to notify,
23
they would have done SO.
24
At some point in this process, whether it was pre
25
or post, I know that there was some explicit consideration of
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1
what are the obligations, and some discussion of, this is not
2
the obligations don't attach until indictment, and therefore,
3
this is a discretionary matter.
4
Whether that happened in September or in August or
5
October, I can't speak to. But I know that that was -- that
6
was talked about, and I think later on in the record, there's
7
an e-mail from our appellate chief in a different case that
8
highlights, well, there is this Texas case that just ruled
9
the other way. So, clearly, it's an issue that had been
10
talked about, and I recall it being talked about. I just
11
can't tell you the when, or the with who.
12
Q
And would there have been any -- you've spoken on
13
one concern --
14
A
Right.
15
Q
-- concerning impeachment of the victims regarding
16
their --
17
A
Yeah.
18
Q
-- financial aspect of the NPA. Would there have
19
been any downside to consulting with the victims concerning,
20
hey, the U.S. Attorney's Office is considering a resolution
21
short of a plea that involves charges in state court. How do
22
you feel about that, victims?
23
A
So, there may not have been a downside. It's
24
difficult to recreate. My understanding, going back 12
25
years, was that the victims would be aware of what was
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1
happening in the state court and have an opportunity to speak
2
up at the state court hearing.
3
0
And where does that -- where does this come from?
4
A
So, my understanding is that when he was going to
5
go into state court that they would have been notified that
6
that was an all-encompassing plea, that that state court
7
sentence would also mean that the federal government was not
8
proceeding.
9
Q
But again, in terms of --
10
A
Before -- your point is before it was signed.
11
Q
Correct, so that they could have input --
12
A
Right.
13
Q
-- into trying, perhaps, if they wanted to, to
14
persuade you that that --
15
A
Right.
16
Q
-- was not a good idea.
17
A
It may have -- it may have been a -- look, looking
18
back on it, it may have been a very good idea. I can't speak
19
to what the thought process was then, other than it was
20
discretionary and it was not legally required.
21
Q
But at least as we sit here today, you cannot
22
recall a particular problem that somebody brought up to you
23
and said, we should not consult because of this problem?
24
A
I don't recall that, and clearly, given the way
25
it's played out, it may have been much better if we had.
EFTA00009377

=== Page 50 ===
Page 150
1
BY MS.
:
2
Q
In the last 15 or --
3
A
Right.
4
0
-- 20 minutes, you've several times referred to
5
discussions and we.
6
A
Right.
7
Q
I want to make it clear that so far, the people who
8
were involved in this case, the Epstein case in your shop
9
were you,
/
,
, and
. If -- is
10
there anyone else who was involved in those discussions other
11
than those five?
12
A
Not to my recollection at this phase.
13
0
Okay. Okay. I just want to make sure --
14
A
Yes.
15
Q
-- we understand who you -- --
16
A
Yeah.
17
Q
-- who is encompassed --
18
A
Right.
19
Q
-- in that general discussion --
20
A
Right.
21
Q
-- of -- of the matter. Okay. So, on July 26, so,
22
we're now a month after that -- that presentation by the
23
defense counsel to the team, including
and
+
24
A
Correct.
25
Q
There was a meeting in Miami, and it was, again,
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1
among
,
,
by telephone,
2
/ as well as the two case agents --
3
A
Mm-hmm.
4
2
and
-
Did you
5
know them, by the way?
6
A
I did not, not to my recollection.
7
Q
Okay, and also their supervisor,
? Did
8
you know
?
9
A
Somewhat.
10
Q
All right, and they were all in West Palm, of
11
course.
12
A
Yeah.
13
Q
And then ASAC
.
14
A
Yeah.
15
Q
Do you recall her?
16
A
Somewhat.
17
0
All right. They arrived - -- or, at least, the trial
18
team -- the investigative team arrived ostensibly to discuss
19
the case. It turned out to be a very brief meeting
20
essentially consisting of
coming in, announcing
21
that you had decided on a two year state resolution, and then
22
essentially leaving without -- that is,
left the
23
meeting without discussion.
24
This was -- this has been described to us as
25
stunning to the investigative team. They had no idea this
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1
was coming. This was -- they were completely blindsided.
2
The question is, were you aware that
was going
3
to announce that you had decided on this resolution?
4
A
So, I don't recall that, but I had decided and
5
endorsed this resolution at some point. And so, the fact
6
that I don't recall doesn't mean that -- I wasn't at the
7
meeting, I don't recall. But I clearly had endorsed this
8
resolution, and so --
9
0
Mm-hmm.
10
A
-- his announcement would have been consistent with
11
my decision.
12
Q
And again, that decision was reached without
13
consultation and discussion with -- and input from the line
14
AUSA. Does that trouble you?
15
A
Sitting here today, I wouldn't have said that there
16
was no input from the AUSA. So, to the extent that she felt
17
there was no consultation or input, that would. From my
18
perspective, trying to recreate things from 12 years ago,
19
there had been discussions and consultations, and she had
20
spoken with
and
and -- and it would have been my
21
guess that views were known and articulated, and there was
22
good communication back and forth.
23
2
But again, that's your expectation of your people,
24
is that correct?
25
A
Correct.
EFTA00009380

=== Page 53 ===
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1
Q
Okay. So -- and also, from our interviews, it --
2
there's -- our -- it's our understanding that you popped your
3
head into that meeting and said hello to the folks --
4
A Okay.
5
Q
-- gathered. Do you have any --
6
A
Again, I --
7
Q
-- recollection of that?
8
A
-- I don't remember the meeting.
9
0
All right.
10
A
I may have -- I may have done that.
11
Q
And it's not --
12
A
Right.
13
0
-- completely uncharacteristic of you?
14
A
Right.
15
Q
Okay.
16
A
It's not.
17
Q
All right.
18
A
No, because that was an internal meeting. That
19
wasn't --
20
0
Right, or -- correct, as opposed to the --
21
A
Right.
22
Q
-- scenario we were discussing this morning. All
23
right, this deal, and we're not talking about --
24
A
Right.
25
Q
-- the term sheet yet, two major prongs we want to
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1
talk about. One -- the first one is forgoing federal
2
prosecution, right? Going for a state only disposition, and
3
I talked to you this morning about the five -- sort of the
4
five ways a case could proceed when it comes from the state.
5
You can either decline it and give it back to the state. You
6
can go ahead and indict, but the guy -- let the defendant or
7
defendants go to trial, or plead to the indictment. You can
8
indict, negotiate a deal, although you talked about some of
9
the issues there, and you can also file a complaint and
10
negotiate pre-indictment, or negotiate something.
11
A
Right.
12
Q
So, why was it that all of those other options were
13
rejected, and the state only deal was settled on?
14
A
So, let me -- let me back up a minute, because I
15
think it was a little more -- a little more fluid. The way
16
the matter came to the office was, the state wasn't doing
17
enough.
18
It didn't provide for prison time. It didn't
19
provide for registration, and then you had the restitution
20
issue. There were legal issues, which I'm sure we'll talk
21
about. There were witness issues. And -- and we could go to
22
trial, potentially, and we may or may not prevail.
23
Alternatively, we could look at a pre-indictment
24
resolution, and at various points, the office went back and
25
forth between a federal pre-indictment resolution, and a
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=== Page 55 ===
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1
state pre-indictment resolution. I think you showed me an
2
exhibit where
said a 371 with the rule 11. There was
3
some discussion of other statutes at some point. I don't
4
recall the timeline.
5
And so ultimately, the focus was as an initial
6
matter, what -- how do we get this to resolution with some
7
flexibility for state versus federal? I think -- not I
8
think. I -- you know, there was a preference for deferring
9
to the state.
10
Q
Where does that come from? What --
11
A
In part because the legal issues are to some extent
12
also present in a federal resolution, because that then
13
becomes a precedent for other similarly situated cases.
14
Q
Did you want to avoid a precedent?
15
A
So, should we talk about the legal issues? Because
16
we -- we say we keep coming back to the legal issues, but --
17
Q
All right. Talk about the legal issues.
18
A
So -- so, when I was at civil rights, one of the
19
areas of responsibility that I had was trafficking. I was
20
very supportive. We set up some of the first human
21
trafficking task forces. I thought civil rights really
22
became aggressive. I think
was one of the point
23
people.
24
We brought in
to be a point person on
25
human trafficking. One of the background issues that -- that
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=== Page 56 ===
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1
informed the time and all those prosecutions and also the
2
development of the trafficking law was, what is the
3
distinction between trafficking and solicitation, and how --
4
and what is the distinction between a truly federal case and
5 a local case?
6
Because there was a lot of concern at the time
7
about federalizing something that is traditionally local.
8
Now, that was 12 years ago, and I think that those concerns
9
are no longer in play today nearly -- and certainly not to
10
the extent that they were 12 years ago.
11
Q
This was the state of play at the time you were the
12
AAG for --
13
A
At the AAG and afterwards as I was U.S. Attorney to
14
some extent, there was a lot of discussions about
15
federalizing state issues generally, and certainly in the
16
legislative issues that went back and forth, that was -- that
17
was a consideration.
18
Q
Wasn't that trend very swift as of -- was it '06
19
when the Adam Walsh Act was enacted?
20
A
So -- so, sure. I think we're trending in a
21
certain direction.
22
Q
All right.
23
A
And I think that trend has continued and
24
accelerated, but these were very -- these were valid, in my
25 opinion, considerations at the time, and one question to be
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=== Page 57 ===
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1
considered is, how would a court look at this -- because
2
different judges may look at these statutes differently. And
3
how would a court consider federal nexus issues?
4
And so, that was, to my mind, an important
5
consideration, because this was at the time to some extent
6
uncharted territory, and while we might prevail, and probably
7
would prevail, we may not have, and how is that weighed
8
against a certain plea with registration that would make sure
9
that the public knew that this person was a sex offender?
10
Q
Okay, a couple of things. One, did you engage in
11
that -- that discussion, based on your experience, with
12
? Did -- did you -- did you engage in that kind of
13
conversation?
14
A
I don't recall who I may have talked to, but this
15
was -- when -- when -- you will see in the record reference
16
to legal issues. This -- these were the legal issues, at
17
least to my mind, that that's referring to.
18
Q
But did you sit -- I mean, not to be silly about
19
it, but --
20
A
Right.
21
Q
-- did you sit in your office and ponder them, or
22
did you in the context of --
23
A
We would have -- we would have discussed them.
24
Q
All right, we, being you, and --
25
A
I and -- whether it's
or
or
, I
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=== Page 58 ===
Page 158
1
wouldn't have sat and pondered them on my own, but we would
2
have had some level of discussion about these.
3
Q
So, conversely, is it your understanding that --
4
that those three guys understood from you at least your
5
perspective on these legal issues?
6
A
I -- let me -- let me push back. Those -- those
7
three professionals, because they are --
8
Q
Oh --
9
A
Yeah.
10
Q
I'm sorry.
11
A
Well, in this context, it's --
12
Q
Colleagues, yes.
13
A
Yeah. Yeah. So, there were two large buckets of
14
issues. One was the witness issues, and on those, I would
15
have deferred more to folks that are experienced trial
16
prosecutors. The other one are these legal issues.
17
0
Mm-hmm.
18
A
And you see it with the fed with the reference
19
at the very beginning to the federal nexus --
20
Q
Mm-hmm.
21
A
-- and you see it throughout where -- these were
22
discussions that we had, and from the very beginning, what is
23
the federal nexus, and how do we make it clear that we are
24
not stepping on something that is a purely local matter,
25
because we don't want bad precedent for the sake of the
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=== Page 59 ===
Page 159
1
larger human trafficking issue.
2
0
Did you have those conversations with your three
3
subordinate colleagues in this case?
4
A
I would have had those conversations with those
5
colleagues. Whether it was with all three, or with two, I
6
can't recall, but I would have had those conversations.
7
Q
And do you recall whether anyone -- anyone among
8
them pushed back as, for example,
indicated
9
his view of some of those issues?
10
A
So -- so, I don't recall specific pushback. I
11
can -- I can say where we concluded, which is there -- we are
12
comfortable enough with the law to believe that we are --
13
that if we need to go to court, we can do so ethically, and
14
we have a good chance of winning. Because if we could not go
15
forward --
16
Q
Of course.
17
A
Then -- then we just can't go forward, right? No
18
matter what outcome you want. Was it a slam dunk? Was there
19
some legal risk? Yes, there was some legal risk.
20
Q
Mr. Acosta, you use the term a roll of the dice in
21
your press conference.
22
A
Yes.
23
Q
In -- there's a different -- I mean, at one end,
24
you have a slam dunk. I would submit that no criminal
25
prosecution --
EFTA00009387

=== Page 60 ===
Page 160
1
A
Right.
2
Q
-- is a slam dunk.
3
A
Correct.
4
Q
Likewise, I would ask you to comment on whether any
5
prosecution is really a roll of the dice, given that a
6
prosecuting authority, in this case, the U.S. Attorney's
7
Office, will have always done investigation, persuaded at
8
least a majority of grand jurors to -- that they -- that
9
there is sufficient proof to bring an indictment --
10
A
Right.
11
Q
-- and so on. Do you -- do you -- would you still
12
hang your hat on a roll of the dice hook?
13
A
So, I don't know if I would use that exact phrase.
14
0
All right.
15
A
But let me -- let me just say, because you --
16
prodding grand jurors. From our perspective, sitting in the
17
office in 2006 and 2007, this is a case that someone comes to
18
you and says, this has been presented, we have no reason to
19
believe the state attorney acted -- we're not happy with what
20
they did, but we have no reason to believe that there was
21
funny business.
22
0
Misconduct?
23
A
Misconduct.
24
0
All right.
25
A
And let's assume that there is no misconduct,
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=== Page 61 ===
Page 161
1
because you don't want to assume that again still. So, the
2
state attorney took this, reviewed it, presented it to a
3
grand jury, and the grand jury came out with this kind of
4
recommendation. That at least is indicative of some -- some
5
other authority looking at this and making a judgement as to
6
what it looks like.
7
Q
Are you aware that at least at the investigative
8
and line assistant level, there was -- they had understanding
9
and reason to believe that the state prosecutors had put in
10
witnesses into their grand jury and set about impeaching
11
them?
I'm not --
12
A
Right.
13
0
-- suggesting that this is misconduct, but it's a
14
way of approaching evidence before a grand jury, and if they
15
did that, it would be perhaps charitably for the purpose of
16
making it abundantly clear to the grand jurors how the
17
witness would fair --
18
A
Right.
19
0
-- or not fair under aggressive cross-examination
20
at a trial and so on.
21
A
Right.
22
O
So, were you aware of that at the time?
23
A
I was not.
24
Q
You were not.
25
A
Right.
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=== Page 62 ===
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1
2
You were not aware that that was an actual concern
2
and understanding --
3
A
That -- that there was --
4
0
-- by your team?
5
A
That there was a concern that they basically - --
6
Q
Tanked the case.
7
A
Tanked.
8
Q
Yes.
9
A
So, there was -- I --
10
Q
You -- I just --
11
A
-- I --
12
Q
You didn't know that?
13
A
I was aware of a concern about how the state
14
attorney -- how aggressive they were.
15
Q
Right.
16
A
There's a -- there's a distance between how
17
aggressive they were versus tanking a case.
18
0
Right, but I am telling you the concern by your
19
people at the ground level --
20
A
Right.
21
Q
-- was the latter.
22
A
Understood.
23
Q
Okay.
24
A
Aware of lack of aggression, tanking the case, very
25
specifically, I mean, there might have been, hey, you know,
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=== Page 63 ===
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1
is there -- this looks really odd, but you've given a level
2
of granularity as to highly unusual conduct. So, my point,
3
there is at least a perspective coming out of the state.
4
There are legal concerns.
5
We believed -- at the end of the day, I thought we
6
would prevail, but they're valid, and then you overlay that
7
with witness concerns, and concerns as to how juries, which
8
were different in 2006 on these issues.
9
Q
What do you base that on, by the way?
10
A
It's --
11
Q
Because you're not a trial attorney anymore.
12
A
So, experience with how juries in South Florida
13
looked at these matters, and with how South Florida looked at
14
the project Safe Neighborhood -- I'm sorry, --
15
Q
It's childhood.
16
A
Project Safe Childhood run initiative generally,
17
and so there had been -- there had been prior instances where
18
we had talked about this, and we had gotten some pushback.
19
Q
From --
20
A
From within the office, from within the FBI.
21
Q
On what?
22
A
On -- on sort of sex cases more generally.
23
Q
And pushback in what regard?
24
A
Where should we put our resources? And so, there
25
was -- there was just a general -- just general pushback.
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=== Page 64 ===
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1
0
Okay, but there are a couple things there. One is,
2
the juries -- the juries -- the petite juries, and --
3
which --
4
A
Right.
5
Q
-- you -- I'd still like the answer on.
6
A
Yeah.
7
Q
And then the other is the FBI being loath to muck
8
around with these cases that they were not --
9
A
Yeah.
10
&
-- yet --
11
A
So --
12
Q
-- engaged with.
13
A
So, let's -- let's take them one at a time, you
14
know, and -- and in all candor, I think we're looking at this
15
through a 2019 lens. You know, at the time, and I've said
16
this in different forms, but you know, Weinstein was known
17
and about, and actions weren't taken, and Bill Cosby was
18
known about. And they're each -- go with me. They're each
19
different --
20
Q
All right.
21
A
-- but I do think the public looked at these cases
22
differently in 2006, and there are at least some
23
individuals -- I'm not saying it was the right view -- but
24
there are at least some individuals who would have looked and
25
said, this is a solicitation case, not a trafficking case.
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=== Page 65 ===
Page 165
1
Q
All right. Who in your office -- who in the U.S.
2
Attorney's Office ever said that?
3
A
So, this was -- this came up in the context of, how
4
would the victims do in court? And it wasn't just, you know,
5
how will they be impeached, but how will jurors look at the
6
fact patterns around this generally?
7
0
And who was -- who was talking --
8
A
I can't --
9
Q
-- about that?
10
A
I can't say. I know that it was discussed. I
11
can't say A, B, C, or D. I --
12
0
Well, it wouldn't have been D, because it would --
13
D would be
/ and I think you would agree with
14
me that she would not --
15
A
I would agree --
16
Q
-- concede that.
17
A
I would agree with you.
18
OF
All right.
19
A
With that, but my point is that when we're
20
talking -- so, when you're looking at victims in court today,
21
I think it's fair to say that the way we approach -- there's
22
been -- you know, there's been a lot of changes in victim
23
shaming, and the degree to which all of that is permitted.
24
The degree to which I think the public understands
25
that -- that girls, minor females, may be scared and may
EFTA00009393

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1
testify differently. And I'm suggesting that it's important
2
to sort of think back to 2006 and understand that these
3
issues may have been viewed differently.
4
Q
You -- you're -- you have not -- since leaving the
5 U.S. Attorney's Office been engaged in the investigation
6 and prosecution or handling in any respect of child sex
7 crimes, is that correct?
8
A
That is correct.
9
2
So, on what do you base this -- is it -- is it a --
10 your cultural observation? Your perspective on the evolution
11
of popular culture, not in a derogatory way, that leads you
12 to that assessment?
13
A
So, on a few -- certainly the law has changed, and
14 the law has become much more aggressive. So, for example, I
15
believe the law on proof of age has changed where proof of
16 age is no longer required.
17
Q
The law has, but the case law even at this time was
18
already --
19
A
What was --
20
Q
-- reasonably clear on that.
21
A
Was reasonably clear, and certainly moving in that
22 direction.
23
Q
Correct. Wouldn't you have wanted to be at the
24
forefront of this?
25
A
So, I believe I was at the forefront of trafficking
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1
issues, and I think if you were to look at my civil rights
2
record, I really was at the forefront of trafficking issues.
3
Q
Even the U.S. Attorney's Office had a very robust,
4
as we discern it now, a very robust initiative. It maybe
5
wasn't a formal initiative, but commitment to prosecute these
6
cases.
7
A
Correct, and -- and I fully supported that. All
8
the more reason why, if there is an issue, and there is a
9
potential for some judge, rightly or wrongly, whether I agree
10
or not -- because you can't always predict -- even though you
11
think you'll prevail, you can't always predict where holdings
12
go.
To
--
13
Q
Are you talking about on appeal?
14
A
On appeal or in trial to --
15
Q
Right.
16
A
-- to issue a negative precedent on travel for
17
purpose of, or on federal nexus, and if you think back at the
18
time, on appear, there were -- there's a lot of case law on
19
commerce clause and federal nexus.
20
Q
Right.
21
A
And so, I think that that is an important and valid
22
factor that goes into the decision making that assesses the
23
risk of trial, not just from the -- this -- you know, how the
24
victims will testify in this particular case, but also what
25
this means to the greater -- to the greater effort.
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1
Q
I understand that completely. What I -- what I am
2
not hearing is where a voice other than you and your team in
3
this case was being heard, like
. Did --
4
did you --
5
A
And --
6
Q
-- talk to him about these issues? Because --
7
A
Not --
8
Q
-- CEOS --
9
A
Not to --
10
0
-- was at the forefront of --
11
A
Not to my recollection.
12
0
All right. Wouldn't --
13
MR. TODD: Let
finish her questions.
14
THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry. Sorry.
15
MS.
: We're all --
16
THE WITNESS: I apologize.
17
MS.
: We're on a mutual role here.
18
THE WITNESS: Okay.
19
BY MS.
:
20
Q
But wouldn't -- if you'd had those concerns,
21
perfectly well founded, why not reach out and engage with
22
CEOS and see what their assessment was about the
23
vulnerability that this case might expose your office to?
24
A
So, I can't reconstruct that 12 years later. You
25
know, one interesting question is would CEOS have come to
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=== Page 69 ===
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1
mind versus civil rights crim, because coming from civil
2
rights crim, I -- you know, my primary trafficking contacts
3
would have been --
4
Q
Did you pick up the phone and --
5
A
Not --
6
0
-- call them?
7
A
Not to my recollection.
8
Q
So, I guess what I'm -- what I'm getting at is you,
9
based on substantial experience and a commitment to these
10
cases in your office -- the U.S. Attorney's Office -- had
11
formed your own analytical analysis -- your own analysis
12
legally.
13
You've told us you've discussed this or made those
14
issues and concerns known to the people who were below you,
15
at least immediately below you, and that it -- that's where
16
it sort of rested. There was not an effort to go out and
17
enhance or add to your understanding of the case, and legal
18
issues.
19
A
So, to my recollection, I don't recall, and it's --
20
we'll get into perhaps -- you know, I -- from my impression,
21
I actually thought I was being more aggressive than main
22
justice would feel comfortable with, and --
23
0
More aggressive in what respect?
24
A
In my interpretation and how comfortable I was
25
going forward than main justice, and we can get into that,
EFTA00009397

=== Page 70 ===
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1
but I thought I was being more aggressive, not less, and so I
2
had these concerns. I did not vet them at main justice.
3
0
Okay. When you said more -- more aggressive, are
4
you talking about the fact that you crafted this state
5
disposition, or that you were more forward leaning on the
6
potential of prosecuting Epstein federally?
7
A
More forward leaning.
8
Q
And yet you didn't. You didn't -- you didn't lean
9
sufficiently far forward to actually pull the trigger and
10
have an indictment returned.
11
A
So, I would push back on that, and that from my
12
perspective, we were leaning forward, because we did
13
prosecute him by deferring to the state, and ensuring that at
14
the state --
15
0
All right.
16
A
-- he had a sentence that he -- where he went to
17 jail.
18
Q
All right. Okay. I want to sort of move on. I
19
want to ask you a question about 11C1C, please, that you
20
mentioned earlier.
21
A
Okay.
22
Q
And sort of alluded to here, when we --
23
A
Right.
24
Q
-- talked about judges, and we talked about
25
dismissing charges from an indictment. Was your -- what was
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1
your position as U.S. Attorney with regard to the binding
2
pleas in an 11C1C plea agreement?
3
A
We used them very rarely.
4
Q
But why?
5
A
As a typical matter, judges did not like them.
6
Q
And -- and was that something that as U.S.
7
Attorney, you engaged with the judges on, or was that simply
8
a matter of seeing what they did with them?
9
A
It -- it happened before I got there. I suspect it
10
continued to happen after I left.
11
Q
All right. Okay. That said, were there some
12
occasions in which the office, if you recall at all, did do
13
11C1C --
14
A
There --
15
OF
-- plea agreements?
16
A
-- may have been. I don't recall.
17
0
Okay. All right.
18
MR.
: And
, before we move onto --
19
MS.
: Yes.
20
MR.
:
-- another issue, can I --
21
MS.
: Yeah. I'm --
22
MR.
:
-- go back a second --
23
MS.
: -- still with federal -- I'm still
24
on the federal prosecution, but go ahead.
25
BY MR.
:
EFTA00009399

=== Page 72 ===
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1
0
We had talked about the -- you talked about the
2
state grand jury, and how their decision informed your
3
decision, and you said, well, what state grand jury did with
4
this. What was your understanding of what this was? Like,
5
what exactly the state grand jury looked at?
6
A
So, so, let me back up. I said it was a factor
7
that informed, not just --
8
Q
I understand.
9
A
-- determined. So, my understanding is that at
10
least some core amount of facts were presented, and I
11
understand that since it was at the state, the FBI may have
12
found additional witnesses, but when it was presented, the
13
very reason the office took it in the first place was because
14
it was presented to the state, and it went to a grand jury,
15
and the recommendation from the grand jury was for a -- you
16
know, a statute that would not require jail time, and that
17
seemed wrong.
18
But the very fact that it was presented to a grand
19
jury certainly was one of several factors that we considered,
20
because it at least indicated some level of how individual
21
jurors may view this.
22
Q
Do you have any recollection that the state grand
23
jury presented a single witness, who, as
talked about
24
earlier, that they impeached?
25
A
I have -- I have read that it was a single witness.
EFTA00009400

=== Page 73 ===
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1
Since then, I don't have an independent recollection of that.
2
Q
Okay.
3
BY MS.
:
4
Q
And were you -- how familiar were you with Florida
5
state criminal procedure?
6
A
It depends what -- what area.
7
Q
Well, you never practiced there, right?
8
A
Correct.
9
Q
I forget what law school you went to.
10
A
Not Florida.
11
0
Not in Florida, and you were not a member of the
12
Florida bar.
13
A
Correct.
14
Q
Correct. So, really any knowledge you had would
15
have sort of been picked up?
16
A
I should -- I should point out that a number of
17
AUSAs in Florida are not a member of the Florida bar, so
18
that's not unusual.
19
Q
Oh, okay. No -- I'm not -- I'm not --
20
A
Right.
21
Q
-- suggesting --
22
A
Right.
23
Q
-- otherwise.
24
A
And in federal employment, you can move from --
25
Q
Right.
EFTA00009401

=== Page 74 ===
Page 174
1
A
Yeah. So, I had been U.S. Attorney for quite a
2
while, and then I -- you know, I think we would have been
3
interacting with the state system sufficiently, and if there
4
was something that I had questions on, I could certainly ask.
5
10
Were you aware that in the Florida system, grand
6
juries were not required to be used to bring federal criminal
7
charges except in capital cases?
8
A
Yes.
9
Q
Okay, so even bringing a case to a grand jury was
10
an -- in a non-capital context, was somewhat unusual?
11
A
An indication that there were some concerns or
12
something, so the state attorney, presenting it in the best
13
possible light, is looking to test the case.
14
0
All right, and without getting into any substance,
15
did you at any point become aware of the kind of reaction
16
that the line AUSA,
, was getting from the
17
federal grand jurors to whom she was presenting?
18
A
I did not.
19
2
All right. Another aspect of concern that I think
20
you mentioned in your press conference was the concern about
21
labelling or putting the girls -- the girls -- the victims in
22
a position where they would be labelled as prostitutes,
23
right?
Do you recall --
24
A
I'm not sure --
25
Q
-- mentioning that?
EFTA00009402

=== Page 75 ===
Page 175
1
A
-- I phrased it that way, but I -- I take -- I take
2
your --
3
Q
We'll defer to the record.
4
A
Right.
5
0
But -- but you did -- you did express concern, and
6
our understanding is there was some expression of concern in
7
the U.S. Attorney's Office among the folks about the victims
8
having to self-identify, or --
9
A Right.
10
0
-- admit that they were sort of prostitutes. The
11
disposition that was reached in the state -- and that -- and
12
that -- avoiding that was something to be desired --
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
-- right?
15
A
Yes.
16
Q
The charge to which Epstein was ultimately require
17
to plead guilty did just that. It was a solicitation to
18
prostitution of minors. Was that -- did that factor in at
19
all as a -- as a -- as an issue of -- that -- that was not
20
being addressed at all --
21
A
Right.
22
Q
-- by the state disposition?
23
A
So, I -- I was aware of and signed off on this
24
three point --
25
Q
The term sheet?
EFTA00009403

=== Page 76 ===
Page 176
1
A
-- it's in here somewhere -- term sheet. In terms
2
of the negotiation over which state statute was used, and
3 which victims, that is something that -- that -- to my
4 understanding, was being handled by Ms.
, and from
5 my perspective, she would certainly have had sensitivity to
6 that.
7
Q
And do you have any idea how that three -- those
8
three counts or charges were reduced to simply one?
9
A
I do not. That would be a function of the course
10 of the negotiations.
11
Q
Why was -- why wasn't any reasoning for this
12
disposition -- deferring to the state -- set forth in
13 writing? Why didn't anyone do a memo explaining what your
14 reasoning was, or what the office's reasoning was?
15
A
I can't speak to that directly, but I can say that
16 it would have been unusual. I don't recall other cases where
17
there was a, this is the reason for our disposition type
18 memo. At least not memos that came to me.
19
Q
Okay. I'm showing you two, and the caption is --
20 is all that's relevant here, but there are two memos that are
21 both dated February 2006, and March 2006. One of them is in
22 fact addressed to you from
, and it attaches a
23 memo, which is a require for pretrial diversion to resolve
24 case against an individual named Ronald Sasse, S-a-s-s-e.
25
And it is a child pornography possession case in
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=== Page 77 ===
Page 177
1
which the conclusion was that the defendant merely possessed
2
it, and that it was a case that should be resolved by
3
pretrial diversion, and I'm just only bringing that to your
4
attention --
5
A Right.
6
Q
-- as well as this second one that I'll show you,
7
to show you that there are cases involving, you know, child
8
sex crimes, where it's -- the office did see fit to set forth
9
its analysis and reasoning for the proposed result.
10
The second document, dated February 15, 2006, is a
11
memo, not to you, but to
in his capacity as chief
12 of the criminal division, and it requests authorization to
13
enter into a plea agreement with a five year cap, and it --
14
it is a C1C plea, and the handwritten notes indicate that the
15
supervisors concurred in it. Again, I'm simply suggesting
16
that there -- that there are at least some examples where the
17
office, you know, in these kinds of cases --
18
A
Right.
19
0
-- did --
20
A
So --
21
Q
-- put it to paper.
22
A
So, I can only speculate.
23
Q
Mm-hmm.
24
A
And questions I would have is, to what extent was
25
this put on paper, because it was a case that
or others
EFTA00009405

=== Page 78 ===
Page 178
1
were not involved with. So, this was the way that in this
2
case, the chief of the -- you know, the economic crimes, or
3
in this case, you know,
is chief of the criminal
4
division, we're communicating information rather than walking
5
in and having a discussion.
6
We're just communicating it on paper as a way to
7
obviate a discussion. In this particular case, there were --
8
there was discussion, there was communication, and so a memo
9
to sort of establish -- in other words, is this a required
10
approval memo, or is this a memo that says, in lieu of
11
getting together, where are the facts, let me know what you
12
think.
13
0
All right, and was there not a practice, or even a
14
requirement in the office that plea dispositions should be
15
memorialized in writing in -- in -- with the rationale?
16
A
So, to the extent that a line attorney might be
17
seeking permission from a supervisor --
18
Q
Mm-hmm.
19
A
-- on a plea disposition, I would think that they
20
would communicate that in writing as the cleanest, most
21
typical way when you've got 20 or 30 line attorneys and one
22
supervisor. That is not necessarily the only way, and
23
certainly as U.S. Attorney, I don't recall a -- you know, a
24
practice of memorializing to me what plea dispositions would
25
be.
EFTA00009406

=== Page 79 ===
Page 179
1
Q
Okay, and in this case, you were involved in the
2
case, right?
3
A
And in this case, I was involved, and so to be
4
clear, I'm not -- I -- I'm not saying that I disagreed with
5
this, and I'm not walking away with it. And so, to the
6
extent that I may have in a meeting said this looks good,
7
that may have obviated a need to --
8
Q
All right.
9
A
-- write that up.
10
Q
Okay. Thank you. Another aspect of the state
11
resolution that raises concern -- and it -- and let me make
12
clear that -- that many of our questions are framed in this
13
way, but we are also reflecting a concern that's been
14
expressed in the press, and in the public, and by others.
15
A
I understand. Understood.
16
0
So --
17
A
Understood.
18
0
-- we're sort of coming through that lens. So,
19
another aspect of the state resolution that raises concern
20
is, doesn't it appear that the -- that by going -- sending
21
this matter back to the state, there's more federal
22
interference, more federal involvement in the state process
23
than there would have been if you had just kept the case?
24
A
So in hindsight, one of the issues I think in this
25
case is after the agreement, and you know, we keep calling it
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=== Page 80 ===
Page 180
1
a non-prosecution agreement, and I kept saying call it an
2
agreement to defer in favor of state prosecution.
3
0
A DPA instead of an NPA?
4
A
Right.
5
0
Why wasn't it called a DPA, by the way?
6
A
I don't know. There's one e-mail where I suggested
7
putting in reference to petite policy.
8
Q
Right.
9
A
And
said, looks strange, take it out.
10
There's another e-mail in the record where I keep saying --
11
everyone keeps calling it an NPA, call it a deferred to
12
state. So, I can't -- you know, I can't say why not, but
13
it's an important distinction.
14
2
But if you had said -- it -- I don't want to go --
15
A
Yeah.
16
Q
-- to far afield, but if you had said, uh-uh, call
17
it, no, call it a deferred prosecution --
18
A
Right.
19
Q
-- agreement, they would have changed it, right?
20
A
They would have, and I -- I actually asked that we
21
have a clause based -- I don't have the independent
22
recollection of this, but based on the record that we include
23
a clause saying that we were doing this in light of the
24
petite policy to defer, and
pushes back and says,
25
I haven't seen that, and he's the local expert, so I deferred
EFTA00009408

=== Page 81 ===
Page 181
1
to him. I take responsibility, but it's an important
2
distinction. And so -- I'm sorry, I just lost track of your
3
question.
4
Q
We were talking about, doesn't this involve more
5
federal interference?
6
A
Could I -- could I grab a Red Bull from you that I
7
bought?
8
MR. HERRON: Yeah.
9
THE WITNESS: Sorry, just a --
10
MS.
: Do you want to take a five minute
11
break?
12
THE WITNESS: Would you mind?
13
MS.
:
Not at all.
14
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
15
MS.
:
Call it, please, at any time.
16
THE WITNESS: Let me grab the Red Bull.
17
MS.
:
Off the record.
18
(Off the record.)
19
BY MS.
:
20
Q
All right. Thank you. All right. Back on the
21
record. So, Mr. Acosta, I was asking you about -- didn't
22
this -- didn't this resolution end up injecting the feds into
23
the state business in a pretty aggressive way?
24
A
And -- and so what I was saying is in hindsight,
25
one of the -- one of the issues here is I think this would
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=== Page 82 ===
Page 182
1
have gone very differently if after the agreement to defer in
2
favor of state prosecution, all the victims knew about this,
3
they had gone into state court, he had pled October --
4
whatever the date was -- had been sentenced, had served his
5
sentence, and case over.
6
And so, one -- you know, to the extent there are
7
lessons learned, an attempt to provide a -- an attempt to
8
backstop the state here, rebounded, because in the process,
9
it got convoluted, and complex, and ended up being arguably
10
more intrusive than it would have had this just been, here is
11
what we'll do, go back to the -- if you go back to the state
12
and work this out, but --
13
Q
Would that have required or depended on cooperation
14
from the state authorities?
15
A
So, I think I was clear, and my recollection is
16
this was an issue where I said it is up to you, and one of
17
the -- I edited a few parts of this. I got involved
18
selectively.
19
&
Exhibit 21b is --
20
A
Oh.
21
Q
-- your edits.
22
A
Okay. So, let's -- before I say I think, let's go
23
to --
24
Q
But --
25
A
-- 21.
EFTA00009410

=== Page 83 ===
Page 183
1
Q
But before we talk about 21b, as a general matter,
2
you talked earlier about the more -- the sort of more
3
typical, usual way in which the U.S. Attorney's Office and
4
local authorities prosecutive authorities would work, and
5
that is cooperatively, and would decide who gets what, and --
6
A Right.
7
Q
-- who has what responsibilities. Here, there was
8
not such cooperation, apparently.
9
A
There wasn't, and I was going to say, to my
10
recollection, we can look at whether it's in 21b or not, one
11
of my edits was make it clear that it's up to him to figure
12 this out with the state attorney, because we as federal
13
prosecutors are not going to walk in and dictate to the state
14 attorney.
15
Q
But in affect, you did.
16
A I --
17
Q
By -- you did -- you did it through Epstein.
18
A
I -- I understand. And so, in an attempt to -- in
19
an attempt to reach a resolution, particularly as convoluted
20
as this got, I do think a lesson learned is that it ended up
21 perhaps being worse that if we would not have in the first
22 place.
23
Something -- I -- we, my team, we very much thought
24
that it was important that he go to jail. That it was
25 important that he register. How we got to that ending is
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=== Page 84 ===
Page 184
1
unusual, and as an attempt to factor in, here are all the
2
issues around the federal statutes, the concerns about
3
trafficking law, here are the victim issues as to trial, and
4
how -- you know, here is -- here are all these things. And
5
so, on the one hand, deferring to state -- to the state,
6
appears -- appears logical.
7
On the other hand, the way it played out was a lot
8
more confrontational with the state than I would have hoped,
9
particularly because rather than go back to the state and
10
work it out, in the collateral -- subsequent collateral
11
attacks, they almost tried to state to circumvent and to --
12
you know, to get the state to circumvent and undermine our
13
agreement.
14
0
And that was -- when you say they, you mean the
15
defense team?
16
A
Yes.
17
Q
So, you could have -- you could have obviated that
18
whole thing if you had just offered the same result, which
19
would be a plea to a criminal charge with, for sake of
20
argument, a two-year cap, which would have required a C1C
21
plea.
22
A
Right.
23
2
And you'd get your restitution, because federal law
24
requires it. They would have been able to proceed under 18
25
USC 22.55 anyway, and he would have gone to jail and been
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=== Page 85 ===
Page 185
1
registered as a sex offender. All just within the normal
2
course of doing business as the U.S. Attorney's Office. Why
3
not pursue that? Who was -- who was calling the shots that
4
said, yeah, we'll do it, but it's got to be with the state?
5
Was that the defense?
6
A
So, something that -- that wasn't the defense.
7
Something that I think is important to sort of lay out here,
8
is the -- the -- sort of the terms sheet was developed really
9
early in the case.
10
Q
Excuse me, it's dated, it's presented to the team
11
by
on the 31st of July. Do you consider that
12
early?
13
A
So, from -- let me -- let me clarify from my
14
perspective. It was developed and approved by me before I
15
became involved with interactions with the defense team.
16
Q
In the sense that you only met with the defense
17
team for the first time in the person of Ken Starr and Jay
18
Lefkowitz and company on the 7th of September.
19
A
And it wasn't the 7th of -- yeah, the 7th of --
20
Q
The 7th of September.
21
A
-- September.
22
0
2007.
23
A
And that is important, because it goes to -- there
24
is a lot of buzz in the media, did they influence this
25
outcome? To my recollection, they may not even have been
EFTA00009413

=== Page 86 ===
Page 186
1
attorneys of record in this case, and I don't know when they
2
came onto the case.
3
Q
Well, there's an e-mail in the package that
4
indicates that you got a call from K and E --
5
A
Right.
6
Q
-- on -- on or about the 6th of August.
7
A
After the terms sheet was --
8
Q
Correct.
9
A
-- presented, and so I say that because we can --
10
we can -- and probably will talk about whether those terms
11
were the best judgement or not, but once those terms were
12
agreed and approved, with the exception of the 24 to 18 as a
13
material, and then we can talk about how that happened, we
14
stuck, and I backed the office, and I backed
in her
15
negotiations on those. And so, I just -- I think that's
16
important to note.
17
0
I understand. I -- that's not, for the moment, the
18
focus.
19
A
Fair.
20
Q
It's the terms themselves, and in this case, the
21
state court disposition, everything that you wanted to get
22
with the state court disposition, you could have gotten with
23
a federal plea --
24
A
We --
25
Q
-- much more easily.
EFTA00009414

=== Page 87 ===
Page 187
1
A
We could have, and there was certainly some
2
consideration of a 371, and that may be -- you know, in
3
retrospect, it would have obviated a lot of issues.
4
0
So, who said no, that's not --
5
A
So --
6
Q
-- acceptable?
7
A
So, there is e-mails that at the time
spoke to
8
me about it. I don't recall, but I'll take responsibility
9
for -- for favoring -- or, not for favoring, but if that's --
10
if that's what happened, I will take responsibility. From my
11
perspective, and my recollection, there are two -- two
12
factors here.
13
Well, I don't know if it's two factors, but at
14
least two factors. One, concerns about how this interacts
15
with federal law, and what precedents this might mean for
16
other trafficking cases. Two, a southern district's general
17
dislike for rule 11, and -- and then third, there were other
18
federal statutes that were considered at various points, and
19
I remember looking at those and saying, yeah, I don't -- it
20
doesn't quite -- it doesn't quite fit.
21
Q
To -- just to be clear, that process of looking for
22
the square peg that --
23
A
Right.
24
0
-- would fit into the round hole of -- of the two
25
years that had been committed to was a process that came
EFTA00009415

=== Page 88 ===
Page 188
1
before the NPA was actually negotiated, at a time when
2
was working with defense counsel to see if there
3
was a federal charges that could be within the two year --
4
A
Correct.
5
Q
-- scope that would allow Jeffery Epstein to serve
6
his time in a federal facility, rather than in a state
7
facility. Is that --
8
A
That --
9
Q
-- is that correct?
10
A
-- is correct.
11
0
Okay.
12
A
And I recall -- I recall at least one of those
13
ideas, and I recall that my general reaction to it was, we're
14
pushing the law that just looks odd, and we don't want to go
15
there.
16
Q
Are you talking the assault on an airplane, or the
17
obstruction of a witness, or --
18
A
I actually -- my recollection is not about the
19
assault on the airplane --
20
Q
Okay.
21
A
-- but about his home being a special maritime
22
jurisdiction.
23
Q
Oh.
24
A
Which is -- no.
25
Q
Definitely square peg in round hole.
EFTA00009416

=== Page 89 ===
Page 189
1
A Right.
2
Q
Correct? But there were -- so, I guess it -- is
3 it -- is it -- is it accurate that from your standpoint, an
4
11C1C federal disposition was not going to be acceptable?
5
That that's not something that you would approve?
6
A
It would have been unusual, I don't recall with
7
specificity, but I can -- based on circumstances, infer that
8
it would have been unusual, and -- and I would have looked at
9 it and said this isn't -- this isn't typical. I'm not
10
comfortable.
11
Q
So, why not -- why not offer the five year hit, and
12
say that's it?
13
A
I wish I could speculate. I mean, I could sit here
14 and speculate after the fact. I can speak to what I recall.
15
I can speak to what I approved. I can speak to the
16 considerations that went into it. There are all sorts of
17
things that in hindsight we may or may not have done, which
18 may have worked out well or not. I -- I can't answer that.
19
2
So, I guess -- I guess the -- sort of the big
20 unanswered as yet question is, why was there a fixation on
21 the two years when that's not something that comported with
22 anything that was possible in the federal scheme?
23
A
So, speaking to the two years, I don't remember
24 with specificity. I -- let me give you my general
25 recollection --
EFTA00009417

=== Page 90 ===
Page 190
1
Q
Mm-hmm.
2
A
-- and then let me speculate.
3
Q
Mm-hmm.
4
A
My general recollection is that there were earlier
5
charges, you all may know those in more detail than I do, but
6
there were earlier state charges that were brought.
7
O
That were brought?
8
A
That -- I'm sorry, not that were brought, that were
9
contemplated.
10
Q
Of which there is no public record?
11
A
There is -- I don't know if there's public record
12
or not. I can just say my recollection is that there were
13
earlier state charges that were contemplated. The state
14
attorney chose to not pursue those earlier state charges and
15
take it to a grand jury.
16
From public information, my understanding is that
17
that's why Chief
became upset. My general
18
recollection is that the two years represented what he would
19
have received if the original recommendation, or the original
20
view of the state attorney's office had gone through, and it
21
hadn't been brought to the grand jury, and I would -- I would
22
sort of point to -- you know, in this Exhibit 3 -- I thought
23
it was in Exhibit 3.
24
Somewhere, there's a reference to -- as you can see
25
it -- Exhibit 3, page three, as you and the agents conceded,
EFTA00009418

=== Page 91 ===
Page 191
1
had Epstein been convicted of a felony that resulted in a
2
jail sentence and sex offender status, neither the FBI nor
3
our office would have interceded.
4
Q
But that is completely silent as to what those
5
original charges may have been, or --
6
A
I --
7
Q
-- how they related to --
8
A
I understand.
9
Q
Okay.
10
A
And so, so, to just close the loop, my
11
understanding is that those two years reflected what that
12
would have been such that the case would not have come to
13
federal authorities in the first place.
14
Q
Okay. Where did that information come from? Who
15
said, oh, those charges would have resulted in a two year
16
sentence? Was that something that was analyzed by your
17
office, or did it come from defense counsel, or --
18
A
I --
19
Q
-- from who?
20
A
I can't -- I can't speculate. It had to come from
21
someone.
22
Q
It did not come from you, is that correct?
23
A
So, I would not have the knowledge to know what
24
that charge would have resulted. As an initial matter, a
25
penalty that says up to blank years is rarely that number of
EFTA00009419

=== Page 92 ===
Page 192
1 years, right?
2
Q Right.
3
A
By the time you apply guidelines and all that, and
4
so I would not have the knowledge to know how to calculate
5
that state sentence.
6
Q
And in fact were you aware that Florida did have
7
its own state guidelines - -- sentencing guidelines?
8
A
Generally, I -- I know that --
9
Q Right.
10
A
-- there is a process.
11
Q
Right.
12
A
Might I at some point have said, you know, Mr. or
13
Ms. AUSA, or management team member, if this had been done
14
the right way in the state, what would he have gotten, and
15
someone comes back to me, possibly, maybe someone at some
16 point had said, look, this would never have come to us if it
17
was done the right way in the state, and this was the term
18 that he would've gotten.
19
At some point in this process, my general
20
understanding is we got to that two years based on not
21
random, but based on, this was the calculation that he would
22
have received.
23
Q
Right, and to make sure we understand, is that your
24
actual recollection, or is it your belief based on what you
25 know happened that that's the way it --
EFTA00009420

=== Page 93 ===
Page 193
1
A
So --
2
Q
-- happened?
3
A
So, it is my recollection of my understanding,
4
which is convoluted, so let me --
5
Q
Yeah.
6
A
It is how I recall viewing the term sheet when I
7
approved it.
8
0
Okay.
9
A
How it got into -- and so, if we got to the term
10
sheet --
11
Q
It's 21 -- no, it's not.
12
A
It's -- it's one of these exhibits.
13
MR.
: 15.
14
BY MS.
:
15
Q
Thank you, 15.
16
A
15. So, if we go to the terms sheet, Epstein
17
pleads guilty - contender to an information follow --
18
charging him with -- these particular statutes are -- I am
19
not familiar with, but I would have assumed that either
20
or someone else would have selected them appropriately. It
21
makes a binding recommendation to serve at least two years in
22 prison.
23
Q
Let me back up if I could. Those three statutes,
24
did you understand those three statutes to be the three
25 statutes that -- or, to be the statutes that the state
EFTA00009421

=== Page 94 ===
Page 194
1
originally was going to bring?
2
A
I can't speak to that.
3
0
You don't know.
4
A
I don't know.
5
Q
So, you don't know what the statutes were?
6
A
Yeah.
7
Q
Okay.
8
A
Yeah. You know, it makes a joint binding
9
recommendation at least two years in prison. My -- my
10
understanding, my recollection of my understanding, when I
11
reviewed these terms, is that that reflected what he would
12
have received if he had -- if the state had gone through with
13
an initial with an initial charge, and from our
14
perspective at the time, that would have obviated the need in
15
the first place to have engaged federal authorities. Agree
16
or disagree with the logic, I'm trying to explain the logic.
17
2
Mm-hmm. No, I understand. Thank you for that
18
clarification. Is it -- you posited a couple of
19
possibilities that you might have said, you know, gee, what
20
would --
21
A
Right.
22
Q
-- he be looking at if --
23
A
Right.
24
Q
-- the state had done what it originally set out to
25
do or was supposed to do. Is it -- how also likely is it
EFTA00009422

=== Page 95 ===
Page 195
1
that someone came to you, one of your people, and said, hey,
2
I suggest we go with two years, because the same reason.
3
A
It's --
4
Q
In other words, it came from --
5
A
Right.
6
Q
-- somebody else to you, and you agreed.
7
A
So, it's very difficult to reconstruct this in
8
retrospect, in part because I don't want to leave the
9
impression that there was one meeting where this was
10
discussed --
11
Q
Mm-hmm.
12
A
-- as opposed to, you've got -- you're sitting
13
across the hall from someone, you're sitting down the hall
14
from someone. There are ongoing discussions, how do we
15
resolve a matter that has some thorny legal questions, some
16
difficult victim witness questions, and this is the kind of
17
back and forth where I might have indicated a concern,
18
someone was trying to address that concern, or I might have
19
asked the question. It -- it's --
20
Q
Well, you've already told us that you did express
21
concern --
22
A
Right.
23
Q
-- about the case, and somebody -- and you were
24
having conversations with
, possibly
/
25
correct?
EFTA00009423

=== Page 96 ===
Page 196
1
A
Correct.
2
Q
And is it possible does it -- is it reasonable
3
that one of them might have come up with a solution for you
4
to your problems?
5
A
And that's the point that I'm --
6
Q Okay.
7
A
-- trying to make. It's certainly possible, and
8
it's difficult to reconstruct that 12 years after the fact.
9
Q
All right. All right. I want to go back to wind
10
up this -- this concern about engagement with the federal --
11
I mean, engaging the federal system into the state process.
12
21b is the exhibit that is your comments really on the very
13
final version of --
14
A
Right.
15
Q
-- the NPA on September 24, and the -- the language
16
is quite striking to us in this regard, looking at the -- at
17
the first e-mail there, you've talked about deleting the
18
petite policy portion upon
recommendation, and
19
inserting global resolution language which you've proposed.
20
And then you then say, "I'm not comfortable with
21
requiring the state attorney to enter into a joining
22
recommendation," and then you propose essentially taking out
23
a mention of the state attorney's office regarding the -- the
24
sentence recommendation, and then you also note, "I'm not
25
comfortable with requiring a state court to stick with our
EFTA00009424

=== Page 97 ===
Page 197
1
timeline," and you ask that the reference be softened -- your
2
term is to soften.
3
You also use soften below when you talk about
4
your -- making it -- a concern about making Epstein an agent
5
of the U.S. regarding negotiations. So, you're really -- and
6
then at the very top, in the -- in the later follow up e-
7
mail, you express concern about, "Do we really need to set a
8
date for his reporting? I'm very nervous about that. If I
9
were a judge, I would be upset by the federal government
10
telling a state court how to manage their calendar. Can we
11
delete?"
12
A
Right.
13
Q
So, clearly you're very mindful, right, of the
14
importance of not injecting the federal sovereign into the
15
state sovereign.
16
A
Correct.
17
Q
Fair? All right, but yet, this whole set up, the
18
whole NPA did require certain actions to occur, however they
19
came about, in the state, because of the federal requirement.
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
And why was that a good idea?
22
A
In hindsight, the complexity that this took on
23
clearly is something that -- that if I was advising a fellow
24
U.S. Attorney today, I would say, think it through. I do
25
think it would have played differently if he had actually not
EFTA00009425

=== Page 98 ===
Page 198
1
done all the collateral deals and stuck to what was --
2
Q
But that came later.
3
A
It --
4
2
This is before it's signed.
5
A
It came -- it came later, but let me -- let me at
6
least say that, and stuck to October 26th, but look, I
7
understand your point, and -- and the response that I can
8
give was, you have -- we had these concerns, but we also
9
thought it was very important that he serve some real
10
punishment, and that he register. And whether -- whether we
11
balance that or not, a lot of people are going to be
12
questioning for a long, long time, but that's how we balanced
13
it.
14
Q
Because the state disposition was not a
15
precondition to achieving those two objectives. You could
16
have done it with a federal plea, serving time --
17
A
Arguably --
18
Q
-- and the offender registration.
19
A
Arguably, we could have done it with a federal plea
20
if judges would have gone -- if judges would have gone for
21
rule 11s, which in the Southern District they tend not to,
22
but arguably. I --
23
Q
Okay. Okay. I just wanted to --
24
A
And you know, again, this is -- this is a hindsight
25
thing, but yes.
EFTA00009426

=== Page 99 ===
Page 199
1
Q
It is, but what we're focusing on is not so much
2
the hindsight as the -- at the time, did this make sense?
3
And it seems that you all were putting in so much effort, and
4
it was so hard to make this come together and work, that
5
it -- it's striking that it didn't collapse of its own -- of
6
its -- of its own weight.
7
A
And to that point, let me say, you know, it's also,
8
if I had to speculate, one question that I'd -- that I'd ask
9
is, everyone's putting in all this effort. You know,
10
put in a lot of work on the negotiations with the defense
11
counsel that were somewhere between zealous and difficult.
12
0
Meaning defense counsel were --
13
A
Yeah.
14
Q
-- between zealous and --
15
A
Yeah.
16
Q
-- difficult?
17
A
Yeah. Whether there's zealous advocates or cross
18
line to rude, we can have conversations about, and at what
19
point, you know, would it have proceeded differently if folks
20
said, let's take a big step back, and let's seriously
21
reconsider? But everyone was very, let's get the job done,
22
let's put him in jail. And I -- look, I'm speculating in
23
hindsight.
24
Q
But could you not have pulled the plug at any time
25
before it was signed? I mean, clearly by the morning of that
EFTA00009427


c1: EFTA00009622
c2: DataSet 7
c3: VOL00007
c4: DataSet 7/VOL00007/IMAGES/0001/EFTA00009622.pdf
c6: pdf
c7: images
c0:
=== Page 1 ===
s
GJ Test.
7/19/2006
dob
16yoa
- Loxahatcher
2005
9th grade
- know outside
ased to date
180119
talked
met for first tine the night before
went to JE
11:30 rsh 10
do you want to make 200.00
mut my froud Jeff bighouse
but you have to give massage
45 min & thats all you have to to
get 200.00
told
&
ant to Bathrron
to argue
came Sacle out
an the phone J assistant ansored
called Jeff
the plan
MM03-TABLET 08-000007
CONFIDENTIAL
3501.092-008
Page 1 of 10
EFTA00009622

=== Page 2 ===
Jeffery asst assond plane -
had
soreone to give massage
Lady asked how old I was
she told the lady 18 t want to
Its 200,00 didnt care what
- Lady trying to verify 18
yes
Gradeted from
KNOWN
for
along time
the next morning
& and/her girl -going to mall
he S didn't care
ashed dedfer 500 yeh sure five take
House in Paln Read
all got outy car gafe at
back door securt guad
the saw us the 6 ashd ascrathere
MM03-TABLET 08-000008
CONFIDENTIAL
3501.092-008
Page 2 of 10
EFTA00009623

=== Page 3 ===
said Jeffy
went to leitcher waited 15min
JE t asst walled in badedoor
shuch hands met both VE asst,
\
JE chose gonne gojirst go
SE said how About you
upstairs "955t lady'
walled me up there pointig out
shwas
all this picture
she pulled out Bassaye table
M fat of Conch bleaket over
table apend draw culole band
of lotions + pid some out
She told my keep brad panties
on & get
with
No
I thaght n massge
weep your clothing
MM03-TABLET 08-000009
CONFIDENTIAL
3501.092-008
Page 3 of 10
EFTA00009624

=== Page 4 ===
stay in the room
J came in the room Has & shale hads
Care back in the room
JE old soish
initall gig golfy Whate parts pullover
t-shrt f jears thong bra
hestant thenky what's going on Ididitions
cause I wanted 200.00
the Laid on nassage table Hesad grab any
3 lotions
Stated to give him
what H.S. did you 5. to
told him she was 18
lat do you lile to do smallade
sat on table 15-20 minute
conversation another house in NY
MM03-TABLET 08-000010
CONFIDENTIAL
3501.092-008
Page 4 of 10
EFTA00009625

=== Page 5 ===
He ashed if I wasted to male
an extra 300.00
Straddly him
massage over -
but Q you're Not COM to gwing a massage
can I
on you anyme
said OK
JE left + came be
Kind I like
grabed that + layed dun back
on table De as
Give ne a nassage on clest
use the
10 minutesorso
( on after a couple air months
CQ
said if he did that he wode
have to pay her
extra rales if he
MM03-TABLET 08-000011
CONFIDENTIAL
3501.092-008
Page 5 of 10
EFTA00009626

=== Page 6 ===
that she would has to
didnt tall her get do taken her
cloths It
He
you get paid
Yes San
He grand walled got the300.00
He told her to write Name + #
after net left the room
I didnt see him
I was seared to tell
her body
nets his bidy
Went dan by herself
sof
2000
Left My didnt do anything but
300w
MM03-TABLET 08-000012
CONFIDENTIAL
3501.092-008
Page 6 of 10
EFTA00009627

=== Page 7 ===
I figure it was probably be came
she brought me
- what happened I got 300.00
I was exited
what did you has to do with him
If you do this yought that
Laughin
Thanks for fully me Imagungto
hustisding bra on Sorry
Didnt plan it
If you ever need many
on yeh - everyshedy
I did house not ever go bade to
- at School my best friend I. told her
if you ever want to males 300.00
massall
Told
MM03-TABLET 08-000013
CONFIDENTIAL
3501.092-008
Page 7 of 10
EFTA00009628

=== Page 8 ===
I confronted her altercation getints
fully everybody
a fight
Spready rumars about me
lat ne see in your purse
you dont has to is Shedand
I worled at
I lidt think it was her basiness
and Why would tell on mysy
- You dont have to lie I Unan what
- happen Everything care out
-
then
I didnt want to tell
had happened,
- I
-
Family getty aby problems
- No the only
sometimes
MM03-TABLET 08-000014
CONFIDENTIAL
3501.092-008
Page 8 of 10
EFTA00009629

=== Page 9 ===
Have you ever done
Survey Yeh
Notawymene
14 birthday my dad
I did
lots of time
$250,000 its a joke
tall sleing Unde hair
MM03-TABLET 08-000015
CONFIDENTIAL
3501.092-008
Page 9 of 10
EFTA00009630

=== Page 10 ===
Control Call
3/31/2005
3:4 3:44pm
4:2 6pm
Im going tomorrow I'll +
I dont
What
The more youdo the more you make
put a schudule tomorrow for
you +
MM03-TABLET 08-000016
CONFIDENTIAL
3501.092-008
Page 10 of 10
EFTA00009631


c1: EFTA00009229
c2: DataSet 7
c3: VOL00007
c4: DataSet 7/VOL00007/IMAGES/0001/EFTA00009229.pdf
c6: pdf
c7: images
c0:
=== Page 1 ===
Page 1
THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
OFFICE OF PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBILITY
X
:
:
INTERVIEW OF R. ALEXANDER ACOSTA
:
:
:
X
Washington, D.C.
Friday, October 18, 2019
Interview of:
R. ALEXANDER ACOSTA
a witness of lawful age, taken on behalf of the United States
Department of Justice in the above-entitled action, before
Beth Roots, Notary Public in and for the District of
Columbia, in the offices of the U.S. Department of Justice,
950 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W., commencing at 9:34 a.m.
Diversified Reporting Services, Inc.
EFTA00009229

=== Page 2 ===
Page 2
APPEARANCES:
On Behalf of the Department of Justice:
.
Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avenue N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20530
On Behalf of the Witness:
GORDON D. TODD, ESQ.
T.J. HERRON, ESQ
Sidley Austin LLP
1501 K Street Northwest
Washington, D.C. 20005
EFTA00009230

=== Page 3 ===
Page 3
1
PROCEEDINGS
2
Whereupon,
3
R. ALEXANDER ACOSTA
4 was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn,
5 was examined and testified as follows:
6
EXAMINATION
7
BY MS.
:
8
Q
So, would you tell us your name, please?
9
A
Rene Alexander Acosta.
10
Q
And Mr. Acosta, you're accompanied by your
11
attorney, Gordon Todd, is that correct?
12
A
Yes, it is.
13
O
And Mr. Todd, would you identify the associate you
14
have with you?
15
MR. HERRON: Yes, T.J. Herron.
16
MS.
: H-e-r-r-o-n?
17
MR. HERRON: Correct.
18
MS.
: Thank you. Mr. Acosta, I'm
19
. I am a counsel with the Office of Professional
20
Responsibility here at the Department of Justice, and with me
21 are my fellow OPR counsel,
,
, and
22
.
We are in a conference room at the Department of
23
Justice main building on today, October 18, 2019, and we're
24 starting at about 9:30 in the morning. Before we start, I'd
25 just want to put on the record that Mr.
worked in
EFTA00009231

=== Page 4 ===
Page 4
1
the Civil Rights Division at the time that you were the AAG
2
heading that division, and I believe had an occasion to
3
briefly meet you in connection with a matter.
4
THE WITNESS: Could I ask what section?
5
MR.
:
I was in the special litigation
6 section.
7
THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
8
MR.
:
And I provided Mr. Acosta some
9
talking points for a press situation that we had in that
10
case.
11
THE WITNESS: 14141.
12
MR.
: Yes.
13
THE WITNESS: Probably.
14
BY MS.
:
15
2
All right. Thank you. Mr. Acosta, OPR is
16
investigating two things. As you know, one, whether one or
17
more federal prosecutors in the Southern District of Florida
18
U.S. Attorney's Office may have committed professional
19
misconduct by entering into the non-prosecution agreement, or
20
NPA, in 2007 with Jeffrey Epstein, who at the time was under
21
investigation by that office, and the FBI, for engaging in
22
widespread sexual misconduct involving underage females.
23
The second thing we're investigating is Judge
24
Marra's finding of February of this year, 2019, that the
25
government may have violated -- or, actually, he found the
EFTA00009232

=== Page 5 ===
Page 5
1
government did violate the CVRA, or Crime Victims' Rights Act
2
when it entered into the MPA without first providing the
3
victims with notice and a reasonable right to confer with the
4
government.
5
You are a subject of the OPR investigation, that
6
is, one of -- somebody whose conduct is being reviewed and
7
evaluated by OPR, and specifically as U.S. Attorney at the
8
time for the Southern District of Florida, you had the
9
ultimate authority over the Epstein for a period of two and a
10
half years, as we understand it, from the time the line AUSA
11
first briefed you and then criminal chief
12
in July of 2006, and until you were formally
13
recused from the case on or about the 8th of December, 2008,
14
after notifying the executive office of the U.S. Attorneys
15
that you were seeking employment with Kirkland & Ellis, a
16
firm of which two attorneys, Ken Starr and Jay Lefkowitz had
17
been representing Jeffrey Epstein. Is that correct?
18
A
We may -- we may get into it a little bit later,
19
but I think the characterization of my seeking employment is
20
not accurate, we can talk about that a little bit later.
21
Q
All right. We have the documents that relate to
22
that. So, that's what we're -- we're basing it on.
23
A
Correct.
24
Q
And I believe the term that's used is seeking
25
employment.
EFTA00009233

=== Page 6 ===
Page 6
1
A
That -- that is the term used in the e-mail. I
2
think I addressed that in my -- I believe Mr. Todd addressed
3
that in the letter that was sent to --
4
Q
All right.
5
A
-- OPR.
6
Q
All right. Thank you. So, we recognize that
7
you're not longer with the Department of Justice --
8
A
Right.
9
Q
-- and that it is your choice to come and talk to
10
us, and we very much appreciate your willingness to
11
voluntarily do so and help us figure this case out. OPR
12
provided you with a few thousand pages of records, e-mails,
13
and correspondence and some other documents that reflect your
14
involvement in the Epstein matter over that two and a half
15
year period.
16
Now that you've had a chance to review, I hope,
17
those e-mails and other documents, we hope you can be
18
specific in helping us understand what happened. Have you in
19
fact been able to review those documents?
20
A
Yes, I have.
21
Q
Thank you. OPR asked you for a written response to
22
certain questions, and we've received and reviewed a written
23
response prepared and submitted not by you, but by your
24
attorney, Mr. Todd, on your behalf. Have you reviewed his
25
response to --
EFTA00009234

=== Page 7 ===
Page 7
1
A
Yes.
2
Q
-- you?
3
A
Yes, I have.
4
Q
And will you now under oath subscribe to that
5
response as if you had submitted to it yourself?
6
A
So, Mr. Todd spoke to me and conveyed the
7
investigation that I provide him. I believe he conveyed that
8
information accurately, and the statements that he ascribes
9
to me in that letter I believe are accurate.
10
Q
All right. Do you have any changes or corrections
11
to that written response?
12
A
No, I do not.
13
Q
Is there anything in it that you do not agree with?
14
A
Again, I think that the statements that he ascribes
15
to me are accurate, and I agree with them.
16
0
All right. So, we are going to accept that
17
statement as representing accurately your -- what you would
18
have responded if you had responded to us directly. Is that
19
correct?
20
A
I -- yes, the statements, he basically gives my
21
positions, and I believe that he gave my positions
22
accurately.
23
Q
Perfect. Thank you. So, as we ask questions and
24
refer to documents, we would like you to correct any
25
misstatements in our questions, or any misstatements or
EFTA00009235

=== Page 8 ===
Page 8
1
errors that are in the documents themselves, because we want
2
to make sure the entire record --
3
A
Mm-hmm.
4
0
-- is correct. Also, there's been an enormous
5
amount of publicity about the Epstein case, particularly this
6
year, including about the events and decisions made back in
7
2006 to 2010 that are the subject of our investigation. And
8
so as best you can, we ask you to try to answer today from
9
your knowledge, understanding, and recollections as of that
10
period of time. However, to the extent you are asked or do
11
speak retroactively, retrospectively, we'll just make it
12
clear that you're doing SO.
13
A
All right.
14
0
Okay?
15
A
And if I could just say, one of the difficulties is
16
with everything that -- all the publicity and all the
17
documents that have made it to the press and in litigation
18
distinguishing between recollection versus after the fact --
19
Q
Right.
20
A
-- speculation, and I will try, but I would
21
appreciate reminders along the way, because it's, it's an
22
important distinction, but it's kind of hard sometimes.
23
Q
We recognize particularly the importance of it.
24
A
Right.
25
Q
That's -- that's precisely the heart of --
EFTA00009236

=== Page 9 ===
Page 9
1
A
Yeah.
2
0
-- our matter. So, Mr. Acosta, your professional
3
background is a matter of public record. I have a couple of
4
questions. By what state bar are you currently licensed?
5
A
So, I am inactive in -- I believe inactive in
6
Pennsylvania and also in D.C.
7
Q
All right, and not in Florida?
8
A
Not in Florida.
9
Q
So, are -- is it -- do I understand that you are
10
not currently an active member of any bar?
11
A
I would have to confirm with D.C. I said not
12
inactive in Pennsylvania and in D.C. because I am not certain
13
whether I'm currently active or inactive in D.C. I am not
14
currently practicing, and so I would have renewed under
15
either active or inactive.
16
Q
All right.
17
A
And we can --
18
Q
We --
19
A
We can --
20
Q
We --
21
A
We can verify that and get that.
22
Q
We would appreciate it if Mr. Todd could let us
23
know your current status. I also would like to know the
24
status -- your bar status in the period of 2006 through 2008.
25
Do you know what that was?
EFTA00009237

=== Page 10 ===
Page 10
1
A
Most likely -- I can -- I can speculate. I don't
2
know as a fact. Mostly likely active in D.C.
3
Q
Mm-hmm.
4
A
And inactive in Pennsylvania.
5
Q
Okay, but likely active somewhere, correct?
6
A
Yes. Yes, I think that's a requirement.
7
Q
Yes, that is a --
8
A
And so --
9
2
-- requirement.
10
A
So, it would be D.C., the distinction between
11
active and inactive in D.C. is more minor, as I recall, than
12
Pennsylvania where there's a large fee difference.
13
Q
All right, thank you, and we look forward to
14
hearing confirmation of that from you, Mr. Todd. So, after
15
serving nearly two years as the assistant attorney general in
16
charge of the department's civil rights division, you were
17
presidentially appointed the interim U.S. Attorney for the
18
Southern District of Florida in June of 2005, and then as we
19
understand it, you were formally nominated as U.S. Attorney
20
in June of 2006, and after being confirmed by the United
21
States Senate, you were sworn in by the U.S. Attorney -- as
22
U.S. Attorney in late October 2006.
23
A
I think that may be inaccurate. I would have to
24
confirm. When you say presidentially appointed, I believe it
25
may have been appointed by the chief judge at the request of
EFTA00009238

=== Page 11 ===
Page 11
1
the Attorney General. The chief judge has appointing
2
authority.
3
0
Okay.
4
A
And you'd have to go back and confirm whether it
5
was either an AG designation or the chief judge --
6
&
All right.
7
A
-- which is different than presidential.
8
Q
And I understand, and again, I would appreciate if
9
you could --
10
A
Yeah.
11
Q
-- follow up on that --
12
A
I -- I'm --
13
Q
-- Mr. Todd.
14
A
-- not certain how to confirm that. That's
15
something that in all candor the department would know --
16
0
All right.
17
A
-- much better than I.
18
Q
Then we will pursue it. My point is that there was
19
a change in your status from interim to -- you -- the U.S.
20
Attorney with the with the full --
21
A
Correct.
22
Q
-- confirmation. How if at all did that change in
23
status affect your view of and your exercise of your
24
authority as U.S. Attorney?
25
A
So, it's difficult to recall. You're now asking
EFTA00009239

=== Page 12 ===
Page 12
1
that just ten years back, but even further back. I was
2
interim for a sufficiently long period of time that -- that
3
by the time the change in status took place, I would
4
speculate that I was, in my mind, the, you know, acting as
5
U.S. Attorney whether you have an adjunctive interim, or
6
acting in front of your name or not.
7
You know, I -- I had great people. I don't recall
8
when -- when
came on board as first assistant, but he
9
was my crim chief, and I thought for the continuity of the
10
office it was important to promote him to first assistant,
11
and --
12
Q
He was promoted actually effective October of 2006.
13
You made a series -- according to e-mails -- the
14
announcement -- the personnel announcement was made to be
15
effective in October 2006 naming
as criminal
16
chief, and
as first --
17
A
Right.
18
Q
-- assistant.
19
A
Right, and they -- they were both long serving
20
professionals within the office, and basically, as my
21
recollection, everyone just moved up one wrung.
22
Q
Okay.
23
A
You would know better than I, because you have
24
those records. And so, sitting here today, I don't recall
25
any specific way in which that shift would have impacted --
EFTA00009240

=== Page 13 ===
Page 13
1
0
All right.
2
A
-- my thinking.
3
Q
You had not served as a -- as a prosecutor before,
4
and had -- didn't have direct criminal experience is my
5
understanding.
6
A
The -- that is correct. I had supervised -- civil
7
rights, for example, had supervised criminal prosecutions,
8
but I had not been a line prosecutor previously.
9
Q
So, as the U.S. Attorney supervising a couple of
10
hundred --
11
A
Right.
12
Q
-- line prosecutors, most involved in criminal
13
work, how -- what -- what -- what interested you most, or
14
appealed to you most as you undertook your -- and carried out
15
your duties as U.S. Attorney?
16
A
What interested me and appealed to me. So, the
17
work of the office, I mean, the -- it's a broad question, but
18
the work of --
19
Q
Mm-hmm.
20
A
-- that office and any U.S. Attorney's Office I
21
think is incredibly impactful to any local community, and I
22
very much enjoyed being a part of the effort to bring folks
23
to justice, to move policy initiatives. You know, I recall
24
early on, we identified healthcare fraud --
25
Q
Mm-hmm.
EFTA00009241

=== Page 14 ===
Page 14
1
A
-- as one big -- one big area, and we had one of
2
the largest out of our -- the largest healthcare fraud
3
initiative. You know, we focused quite a bit on gun
4
violence, and we did a great job on that, and it's one of
5
those jobs where people feel very good about what they do,
6
and it's great to be part of it. I'm sure what --
7
O
No, that's --
8
A
-- okay.
9
Q
That's helpful. It just gives us a --
10
A
Yeah.
11
0
-- some perspective.
12
A
Yeah.
13
0
Was there any aspect of it that you particularly
14
disliked?
15
A
To the extent you're dealing with personnel issues,
16
I think personnel issues are -- are rarely the preferred part
17
of any executive function.
18
Q
You mean the conflicts among attorneys, things like
19
that, or performance issues?
20
A
Performance issues.
21
Q
All right.
22
A
And you know, when you've got -- in any large
23
office, you get personnel issues, disciplinary issues, and
24
those are never --
25
Q
Mm-hmm.
EFTA00009242

=== Page 15 ===
Page 15
1
A
-- those are never fun.
2
0
Mm-hmm. So, we talked about the personnel -- high
3
level personnel changes you made sort of after your first
4
year there.
had, we understand, been functioning
5
de facto as a first assistant while
was not.
6
He -- we understand
had been first assistant, but
7
he stepped away, and
came in to essentially take
8
over his brief until he was formerly appointed first
9
assistant. Is that consistent with your memory?
10
A
So, you might have characterized that more strongly
11
that I would have.
12
Q
Okay.
13
A
Again, it's difficult to recreate from back then,
14
but there was certainly a transition period from Mr.
15
to Mr.
, and if I could, because when you
16
said high level changes, my intent -- it was a great office.
17
Great professionals. My intent in elevating Mr.
was
18
just you go from criminal chief to first assistant, and I
19
don't recall Mr.
prior position, but I know that he
20
was also elevated. I think he might have been major crimes,
21
but --
22
0
That's correct.
23
A
-- I'd be -- I'd be speculating.
24
Q
We can --
25
A
I could guess it.
EFTA00009243

=== Page 16 ===
Page 16
1
0
We can verify that.
2
A
Okay.
3
2
Yes. What was your assessment of
? His
4
capabilities, his judgement, and his working relationship
5
with you on a day to day basis?
6
A
Outstanding. He had been in the office for
7
decades. He was respected by everyone. He had a good tone
8
to him. He was someone, you know, I wanted individuals
9
around me that were respected within the office and that were
10
trusted and that had been there for a long time, and then I
11
think I was very lucky to -- to have that in my management
12
team.
13
Q
As we understand it, your office as U.S. Attorney
14
was sort of on one side of the reception area, and the first
15
assistant's office is on the other side. Is that correct?
16
A
That is correct.
17
Q
Or, at the time --
18
A
Correct.
19
Q
-- that was correct. So, did you and
20
have a sort of easy back and forth --
21
A
Walking --
22
Q
-- open door?
23
A
-- into each other's offices multiple times a
24
day --
25
Q
All right.
EFTA00009244

=== Page 17 ===
Page 17
1
A
-- kind of relationship.
2
0
All right, and given that he had had experience
3
throughout his career at the department in the criminal arena
4
and you had not, to what extent would you rely on him, among
5
others, for guidance, perspective, information, and so on?
6
A
I named him first assistant because I valued his
7
guidance and his perspectives and I thought those were
8
valuable.
9
Q
Okay. You also, as we pointed out, appointed
10
to succeed
as criminal chief effective
11
October of 2006, and he served for about ten months before he
12
left for private practice. He left at the beginning of
13
August --
14
A
Mm-hmm.
15
2
-- 2007. What -- you -- you did -- you said you
16
didn't recall, as we sit here today, what section he'd come
17
from.
18
A
Right. I guessed it was major crimes.
19
Q
All right. Were you -- what was your assessment of
20
?
21
A
Outstanding as well, and if I could say, when I say
22
I don't recall but I guess, when you're going back 12 years,
23
sometimes you get an impression but you can't say it's a
24
recollection, and that's going to come up multiple times
25
today, just because it's a while ago.
EFTA00009245

=== Page 18 ===
Page 18
1
Q
As long as we make that distinction --
2
A
Right.
3
0
-- both are helpful.
4
A
Right, and so -- so, whether it's a recollection or
5
a construction after the fact, I can't -- I can't say, but
6
you know, I -- I thought that one of the helpful factors with
7
is he had spent a lot of time -- and major crimes is the
8
most active -- active unit. I assume you all know the
9
structures of the office --
10
Q
Mm-hmm.
11
A
-- but major crimes is not major crimes, it's sort
12
of the entry level crimes, and I valued the fact that he had
13
trained and, you know, so many AUSAs, and really spent a lot
14
of time reviewing -- the major crimes chief as opposed to the
15
other chiefs spends a lot of time reviewing the work of
16
AUSAs, and so, he would be someone who is very experienced
17
and able to get in the weeds.
18
Q
And he in fact was around -- during that time
19
period, had gone back in the courtroom, if you recall, to
20
actually try a major case. Do you recall that? It was a --
21
A
I didn't until you --
22
Q
-- major fraud case.
23
A
-- mentioned -- I didn't until you mentioned it,
24
and now there's something in the back of my head that's
25
saying that sounds right, but I can't give you more detail.
EFTA00009246

=== Page 19 ===
Page 19
1
Q
All right. What was your assessment of
2
sort of working style, and particularly working
3
with you?
4
A
You know, again, positive. You know, we didn't --
5
I didn't see him as often as Mr.
, but --
6
Q
He -- was he located on the same floor?
7
A
He was located on the same floor, but not within
8
the same suite.
9
Q
Mm-hmm.
10
A
And -- and that -- that affects interaction, but a
11
positive working relationship.
12
Q
All right, and how -- how -- to what extent would
13
you, as criminal chief, was he relied on by you as
14
distinguished from
with regard to the criminal
15
matters pending?
16
A
Also relied on. Depend -- that would depend almost
17
on the matter for --
18
Q
Okay.
19
A
-- as in a typical situation, he would bring things
20
to
,
who would them bring them to me along, and so he
21
would bring things to
,
and then depending on their
22
discussion, they might both walk into my office. But he
23
would typically run things through
before coming to me.
24
Q
Were there occasions when he would come to you
25
directly?
EFTA00009247

=== Page 20 ===
Page 20
1
A
Sure. That's why I said in a typical --
2
Q
Okay.
3
A
It's difficult to sort of recreate the
4
interactions, but he certainly could come to me directly, and
5
in some cases, I would say probably would.
6
Q
Again, it being a large office with several
7
physical locations, and we understand it, a very high
8
volume --
9
A
Mm-hmm.
10
Q
-- of cases --
11
A
Right.
12
Q
-- and particularly in the criminal context, is it
13
fair to say you didn't review every prosecution as it was
14
brought?
15
A
It -- it is not just fair, but accurate. I recall
16
a conversation with a U.S. Attorney from a small district
17
early on at one U.S. Attorney's conference where we compared
18
notes, and the interaction of an office with 30 prosecutors
19
is very different than one with --
20
Q
Mm-hmm.
21
A
-- a few hundred prosecutors.
22
Q
So, when you did engage on a -- on a criminal case,
23
would you -- whether it was a planned prosecution or a case
24
heading to trial, would you generally rely on written
25
submissions, or would you -- this is really an --
EFTA00009248

=== Page 21 ===
Page 21
1
A
Mm-hmm.
2
O
-- inquiry into --
3
A
Right.
4
Q
-- your style, or would you have everybody
5
together, and talk about it, or would you rely on your most
6
immediate subordinates to be briefing you? How -- which one
7
of those --
8
A
So --
9
Q
-- kinds of --
10
A
So --
11
Q
-- approaches --
12
A
So --
13
Q
-- did you take?
14
A
I would say that really depended, and probably
15
varied based on -- on individual needs. For the most part, I
16
would most likely just speak with my first assistant and/or
17
criminal chief, and assess what else needed to be done.
18
Q
In other words, you would sort of do it on a --
19
sort of on a verbal, or based on oral --
20
A
Correct.
21
Q
-- interaction and --
22
A
Correct.
23
Q
-- presentation as opposed to going through stacks
24
of papers?
25
A
For -- for the -- I would say that was typical.
EFTA00009249

=== Page 22 ===
Page 22
1
Q
Yeah.
2
A
I don't want to say that was the case every single
3
time, but that was -- was typical.
4
Q
All right, and to what extent did you go out and
5
about to encounter the line attorneys, or example? Was that
6
something that you were able to do and wanted to do?
7
A
Yes, and yes, and you know, I -- when I started, I
8
made it a point of walking every floor and meeting everyone,
9
and in -- toward the end of the day, I would also if I could
10
make it a point -- particularly of major crimes of just
11
walking down to the floor and seeing who was there and what
12
they were doing and -- and sort of popping my head in and
13
just saying hi because I think it's the right thing to do.
14
2
Okay. Okay. Was that a way to support the troops,
15
or was it more a way for you to find -- to become informed
16
about what was going on?
17
A
Probably a little of both, of support the troops,
18
but also get the temperature for the office, see how matters
19
are progressing.
20
2
You at the criminal -- or, rather, the civil rights
21
division, had experience with human trafficking and child sex
22
trafficking cases --
23
A
Correct.
24
Q
-- under your supervision. We understand that you
25
brought that concern, or your concern about those issues with
EFTA00009250

=== Page 23 ===
Page 23
1
you to the U.S. Attorney's Office, and that -- we know that
2
under your tenure, the U.S. Attorney's Office had many
3
successful prosecutions involving conduct ranging from
4
internet child pornography --
5
A
Mm-hmm.
6
Q
-- to international sex tourism --
7
A
Correct.
8
Q
-- victimizing children in particular. In mid-
9
2007, you -- according to press reports, you set up a new
10
special prosecutions unit --
11
A
Correct.
12
Q
-- to focus on, among other things, sex crimes
13
against children. Could you tell us what importance those
14
kinds of cases held for you as U.S. Attorney?
15
A
Sure. If I could -- if I could just back up a
16
little bit, because the -- the question goes -- the special
17
prosecutions unit, and let me address that part of it. There
18
are a few things embedded in that.
19
0
Mm-hmm.
20
A
There's -- there's -- the special prosecutions unit
21
was set up because there were some issues that -- that I
22
thought were important to pursue in particular, and one of
23
those was -- was sort of the trafficking issues. Another one
24
was the gun violence, and the intent of special prosecutions
25
was to have a group of individuals that would sort of be
EFTA00009251

=== Page 24 ===
Page 24
1
dedicated and not part of the usual major crimes group. So,
2
it wasn't exclusively -- I -- your question may have implied
3
it was exclusively for sex crimes, and it --
4
2
Oh, no.
5
A
-- and it wasn't -- yeah.
6
Q
No, I understand it was not.
7
A
Right.
8
0
Okay.
9
A
And so, I thought it was sufficiently important,
10
and so, it was one of the -- one of the initiatives that we
11
were certainly pursuing.
12
Q
And was that something that you can -- that -- to
13
which you brought your experience as head of the civil rights
14
division as well?
15
A
It was. I think -- not I think I know when I was
16
head of civil rights that that's something that I'd put
17
particular emphasis on, and I thought civil rights really
18
stepped up and did a great job on that.
19
0
Did you yourself ever -- I recognize you were never
20
a prosecutor as such.
21
A
Right.
22
Q
But did you ever have experience being involved in
23
a prosecution that -- sort of the nitty-gritty of the
24
prosecution of that kind of case? Sort of seconding yourself
25
to a trial team, for example, or an investigation?
EFTA00009252

=== Page 25 ===
Page 25
1
A
So, if by nitty-gritty you mean seconding myself to
2
a trial team the answer would be no.
3
0
All right.
4
A
There are a number of cases that I recall being
5
briefed on and talking about, but --
6
0
But at that high level?
7
A
Correct.
8
Q
All right. The department set up in 2006 a PSC
9
program, a Project Safe Childhood program --
10
A
Correct.
11
2
-- focused on internet child pornography, and you
12
appointed
as your first PSC --
13
A
Correct.
14
0
-- coordinator, and she was also of course the line
15
attorney on the Epstein case. How well did you know
16
, and can you -- can you give us your assessment of
17
her capabilities, judgement, and her interaction with you?
18
A
So, a few things in there. How well did I know her
19
prior to appointment? I don't recall. I'm not -- I don't
20
think I knew her particularly well prior to appointment. She
21
was clearly respected within the office, and I don't recall
22
but I can speculate that she was appointed based on
23
recommendations of management, and her interest and some
24
combination -- and prior work and some combination thereof.
25
You asked me to characterize
--
EFTA00009253

=== Page 26 ===
Page 26
1
&
Her -- your view of --
2
A
Right.
3
Q
-- her capabilities, her judgement --
4
A
Right.
5
Q
-- her acumen, her knowledge of the law.
6
A
I think she was a good, strong, professional AUSA.
7
I mean --
8
0
Do you have any -- did you have any negative -- you
9
know, anything less than fully positive in your assessment of
10 her?
11
A
No.
12
Q
Okay.
13
A
I think she was a good, strong, dedicated AUSA.
14
Q
All right.
--
15
A
Yeah.
16
2
-- was the managing AUSA at the West Palm Beach
17
office.
18
A
Correct.
19
Q
At least -- and would -- and
worked
20
there.
How closely did you work with
/
and again,
21
that --
22
A
Mm-hmm.
23
Q
-- assessment question --
24
A
Right.
25
0
-- what was your assessment of him?
EFTA00009254

=== Page 27 ===
Page 27
1
A
So, less so, only because of geographic distance.
2
2
Mm-hmm.
3
A
I would also say he was a respected professional.
4
He had a good reputation. He went on to be chief of staff
5
here at the -- at the criminal division, which I think speaks
6
to how he was viewed within the department.
7
Q
Mm-hmm.
8
A
And so, I would say positive.
9
Q
Okay. So, now turning to the Epstein case.
10
A
Yeah.
11
Q
Now that your recall has been refreshed by virtue
12
of the documents we've provided, before we get into the
13
actual sort of documents and some of the details of the
14
events, would you please give us a general overview of what
15
you currently remember, refreshed, about how the case came
16
into the U.S. Attorney's Office, how it was assessed for
17
prosecution, and how and why the decision was made to resolve
18
it with a two-year state plea that ultimately became an 18 --
19
A Okay.
20
Q
-- I mean, yeah, a two year state plea that
21
ultimate became --
22
A
All right.
23
Q
-- an 18 month state plea.
24
A
Okay, so --
25
MR. HERRON: Before you answer the question, let me
EFTA00009255

=== Page 28 ===
Page 28
1
just jump in on the notion of refresh your recollection,
2
which is -- of course has a very specific legal meaning, and
3 I think to assert that Mr. Acosta's recollection has been
4
refreshed generally probably overstates it. It's really a
5
document by document, issue by issue thing. So, I'd push
6 back on that --
7
MS.
: I --
8
MR. HERRON: -- a little bit, but the question is
9
fair and accurate.
10
MS.
: If you're talking about handing him
11
a document to refresh an exhausted recollection, that's not
12 the process we're talking about. We're using it in a more
13
lay term that, you know, if we asked you this before, giving
14 you all these documents, you'd probably would have not been
15 able to be as full in your responses. So, we're asking for
16 your full response. Thank you.
17
MR. HERRON: We appreciate the opportunity to
18
review the documents, and Alex, in your answers, try to
19
distinguish what you actually recall --
20
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
21
MR. HERRON: -- in your own head versus what you
22
saw in the documents.
23
MS.
: Yeah.
24
MR. HERRON: And that would make for --
25
MS.
: Thank you.
EFTA00009256

=== Page 29 ===
Page 29
1
MR. HERRON: -- the cleanest record.
2
THE WITNESS: Okay. So, three parts. How did it
3
come into the office? How did -- I'm sorry --
4
BY MS.
:
5
Q
How was -- how did it come in?
6
A
Right.
7
Q
How was it assessed for prosecution --
8
A
Right.
9
Q
-- and then how and -- how and why the decision was
10
made --
11
A
Right.
12
Q
-- to resolve it the way it was.
13
A
So, so, let's begin with how did it come into the
14
office. Putting all the documents aside, I can't say with
15
certainty how it came in. I can speculate how it came in,
16
and the way it would have come into the office is -- I can
17
speculate that the chief -- the chief rider from Palm Beach
18
County would have brought it to either the FBI or to the Palm
19
Beach Office. I'm not certain that I would have asked who
20
brought this case to the office as opposed to the case is now
21
in the office, so let's --
22
Q
Right.
23
A
-- let's discuss it, right? The format, or the
24
mode in which it came in I think is important, because my
25
recollection is it arrived to us in the position that the
EFTA00009257

=== Page 30 ===
Page 30
1
state attorney had negotiated a plea, and that the reason
2
that we looked at it was that that plea was going to be --
3
that there had been an initial charge that wasn't pursued,
4
and that required jail time and registration, and that the
5
plea that was going to be taken was a charge that didn't
6
require jail time, and didn't require registration, and based
7
on the preliminary assessment of the facts, that seemed --
8
that seems wrong. So, that's how did it arrive. The next
9
question was --
10
Q
How was it assessed for federal prosecution?
11
A
So -- so, it was assessed for federal prosecution,
12
my recollection, from -- from very early on, and I'm sure
13
we'll talk about this some more, is you have a case that,
14
while technically it wasn't final at the state level, but for
15
federal involvement, would have been final, and -- and so
16
from the earliest point, we were thinking federal versus
17
state and petite, and the contemporaneous record sort of
18
shows -- at least the material that I got, the earliest
19
communication was Mr.
telling me that
is
20
preparing a petite policy waiver -- that Ms.
is
21
preparing a petite policy waiver, and that's consistent with
22
my recollection of how it was assessed, and -- and then
23
brought in -- assessed, you know, does it make sense to go
24
forward, yes, investigate, and circle back. And then -- and
25
then the third part was the --
EFTA00009258

=== Page 31 ===
Page 31
1
0
How and why the disposition.
2
A
So, my general recollection is the view was that if
3
the state had followed through on an original charge -- I
4
don't recall which -- that called for jail time and that
5
called for registration, that the local police or whoever
6
brought it would not have seen the need to refer it.
7
And so, that was in terms of pre-indictment
8
resolution, a -- a logical and reasonable place given all the
9
other sort of factors, both the petite concerns, the witness
10
concerns, and the legal concerns.
11
And to that, I would add a fourth concern, which is
12
it had already been reviewed by a grand jury at the state
13
level, is my recollection. And so, to some extent, that's
14
indicative of how some individuals may sort of view this
15
matter.
16
Q
Okay. We're going to pick that apart.
17
A
I figured.
18
Q
But thank you for that.
19
A
You -- you asked for an overview, so I tried to
20
just be very --
21
Q
Yeah.
22
A
-- general.
23
2
That doesn't -- that doesn't -- the second part of
24
that last prong was -- was why a two year state plea. In
25
other words, you talked about -- you talked about assessing
EFTA00009259

=== Page 32 ===
Page 32
1
the case and why resolve it, but why with a two year state
2
plea? What's the --
3
A
And so --
4
Q
-- overview?
5
A
And so my general recollection is -- my
6
understanding if I was asked, what is the best
7
understanding that I have of why two years, is that is what
8
would have been obtained in one of the original state
9
charges. Again, this is --
10
0
How do you know that?
11
A
We --
12
Q
How did you know that?
13
A
I'm -- that's why I say general recollection. I'm
14
reconstructing memories of that 12 years ago. I can
15
speculate that at some point, the matter came up, and I or
16
someone else said if, you know, what would the original --
17
what would the original plea have -- you know, what would the
18
original charges have likely brought? And someone said this
19
amount.
20
Q
How would have said that?
21
A
I -- I'm speculating at this point. I don't have a
22
recollection, but -- but that's -- that's my general
23
understanding.
24
Q
All right. All right. We'll now unpack --
25
A
Yeah, I --
EFTA00009260

=== Page 33 ===
Page 33
1
0
-- some of that.
2
A
-- I noticed.
3
Q
And by the way, my colleagues, we're all in this
4
boat together. So, they're going to feel free to --
5
A
I know.
6
Q
-- chime in --
7
A Yeah.
8
Q
-- as they see fit. So, the first thing going --
9
going to the intake of the case, we know from the records
10
that -- and by the way, we've obviously done a great deal of
11
other investigation --
12
A
Right.
13
Q
-- and spoken to many people. So,
14
briefed you and
pretty much when the case first
15
came in --
16
A
Mm-hmm.
17
0
-- in mid-2006, after the FBI and indeed the
18
office -- the U.S. Attorney's Office in West Palm had opened
19
the case, but before Epstein was indicted. So, this first
20
exhibit, Exhibit No. 1 that you have in your binder before
21 you -- or, in your folder before you -- is that e-mail from
22
to you that you just referred to dated July 24 --
23
A
Right.
24
Q
-- 2006, in which he's sort of passing on the
25
information that Epstein has by now been arrested -- been
EFTA00009261

=== Page 34 ===
Page 34
1
indicted arrested and indicted by the state. Do you
2
recall anything about that original briefing from
3
?
4
A
I - I don't.
5
Q
All right. Did you know at the time that -- at the
6
time she briefed you --
7
A
Mm-hmm.
8
0
-- which is prior to Exhibit 1, did you know who
9
Epstein was?
10
A
I did not.
11
Q
Never heard of him, to your knowledge?
12
A
To my knowledge, I don't recall having heard of
13
him.
14
2
And what did you understand at that early point the
15
case to be about?
16
A
So, I don't recall the briefing, and so I can't
17
give an independent recollection. You know, based on this, I
18
mean, the --
19
0
You're talking about Exhibit 1, and you're --
20
A
Based on --
21
Q
-- looking at --
22
A
-- based on Exhibit 1, you know, I can -- I can
23
infer that this would have been my general understanding of
24
the case, and you know, and the key things that I point here
25
is pre-trial diversion, which is code for no jail time, and
EFTA00009262

=== Page 35 ===
Page 35
1
petite policy.
2
Q
But this -- what -- Exhibit No. 1 --
3
A
Right.
4
0
-- does not make it clear to you that this case
5
involved allegations that Jeffrey Epstein had been enticing,
6
coercing, whatever verb you want to use, young, underage
7
females -- we will for the record call them girls here --
8
A
Mm-hmm.
9
Q
-- as opposed to women, and these underage females
10
were being paid to provide him essentially with sex, or
11
sexual activity or conduct, of a pretty salacious nature. Do
12
you recall that as being essentially what you were briefed on
13
from the beginning?
14
A
Again, I don't recall the initial briefing. I take
15
it based on your review that there was an initial briefing.
16
I can't say the degree of detail. I can't say what it was
17
about. As a -- as a typical matter, I wouldn't be briefed
18
when a case comes into the office other than being made
19
aware, this is a case, this is what we're looking at.
20
Q
So, then, if you --
21
A
Sure.
22
Q
-- understanding you don't remember the briefing,
23
is it fair to say that you did have some understanding of
24
what the case that was that West Palm Beach was pursuing as
25
of mid-2006?
EFTA00009263

=== Page 36 ===
Page 36
1
A
I certainly had an understanding of the general
2
facts of the case early on. I can't speak to whether it was
3
mid-2006 versus late 2006 versus 2007, but --
4
Q
Mm-hmm.
5
A
-- early on, I certainly had an understanding that
6
it was a case that involved, you know, a billionaire who was
7
doing sordid things with young women or girls who were
8
minors.
9
Q
and the records indicate that her
10
concern in bringing this all the way to you --
11
A
Mm-hmm.
12
Q
-- and her first at that time criminal chief --
13
A
Right.
14
Q
-- but sort of acting First Assistant
15
was because she was afraid of political pressure that
16
might be brought to bear against the U.S. Attorney's Office
17
in this case. Do you have any recollection of that being a
18
concern that was laid before you?
19
A
I don't -- again, I don't recall the early -- that
20
briefing. I've reviewed this e-mail, and -- and I can -- you
21
know, I take it -- it would have been natural for me to say,
22
should we approach the state attorney, because we had lots of
23
ongoing matters with the state attorney, and it seems that
24
said no for fear it'll be leaked straight to Epstein,
25
and I assumed I'd let it be at that point.
EFTA00009264

=== Page 37 ===
Page 37
1
Q
And do you know -- oh, do you know what he meant by
2
it being leaked to Epstein by the state -- by Barry -- Barry
3
Krischer, the then State Attorney?
4
A
So -- so, based on the context --
5
Q
Mm-hmm.
6
A
-- what I would assume is that if the state
7
attorney is cutting this kind of deal, and it appears that
8
things have already leaked, because you know, there's clearly
9
and article here with leaked -- you know, so, something has
10
already leaked.
11
Q
You're referring to Exhibit 1?
12
A
Exhibit 1. Other things would leak.
13
Q
Had you ever met Barry Krischer?
14
A
Sure.
15
0
What was your relationship with him?
16
A
So, there were multiple state attorneys within the
17
district. He was -- it was a professional relationship. We,
18
you know --
19
2
It was an elected position, correct?
20
A
It was an elected position.
21
Q
And what was your assessment of his aggressiveness
22
as a prosecutor, and his capabilities?
23
A
On the public -- my -- most of my assessment with
24
him was on the public corruption front, where we had brought
25
several cases, and I was a little disappointed that these
EFTA00009265

=== Page 38 ===
Page 38
1
were cases he could have brought that he chose not to bring.
2
&
Right. So, is it -- can I -- am I accurate in
3
inferring from that that you didn't regard him as a
4
particularly hard charging prosecutor?
5
A
So, I -- with any state attorney, I hesitate to
6
sort of paint broad brush strokes. I don't think that's
7
always fair, but my experience had been in the public
8
corruption space.
9
0
Yeah.
10
A
And in that space, I did not think -- whether it
11
was him, or whether it was his office, I can't speak, but I
12
did not think they had done as much as they could have done.
13
0
Is there any area in which you thought he and his
14
office did pursue aggressively?
15
A
So, as I recall, we had had -- we had emphasized
16
gun crimes quite a bit, and really had had a lot of success
17
moving -- moving the ball in the gun crimes space in Palm
18
Beach.
19
0
What --
20
A
But let me -- let me just say, it's also very
21
difficult to reconstruct time frames.
22
Q
Mm-hmm.
23
A
And so, I hesitate, because I don't know if that
24
was 2006 or 2007, or -- but you asked in another area, and --
25
Q
In this Exhibit 1, you ask whether it's
EFTA00009266

=== Page 39 ===
Page 39
1
appropriate -- appropriate to approach Barry Krischer and
2
give him a heads up as to where the U.S. Attorney's Office
3
might go, presumably --
4
A
Right.
5
Q
-- with this case?
6
A
Correct.
7
Q
Why would you want to extend that difference to
8
him?
Why would it matter?
9
A
A colleague in law enforcement. I thought it was
10
important for the office to work with -- with state attorneys
11
as a general matter, and I found that the office worked best
12
when it had good working relationships with state attorneys
13
and with -- you know, with -- for that matter, the agency
14
SACs and others, and --
15
Q
Right.
16
A
-- but again, you know, rather than my asserting,
17
I'm asking
, and
was saying no, and I don't know
18
what the ultimate outcome was, but I would guess that we'd
19
just defer and let it be.
20
Q
Turning to Exhibit 2, this is an e-mail that was
21
forwarded to you by
, the original forwarded e-
22
mail is from
copying
, and it
23
essentially relates to a dust up between
and
24
over chain of command, and her workload, but
25
in the first paragraph, she specifies that, "When I first
EFTA00009267

=== Page 40 ===
Page 40
1
heard about the Epstein investigation, I spoke with
2
about it.
was not here."
3
"
said that she would back me up on the case,
4
but I knew what has happened to the state prosecution can
5
happen to the federal prosecution if the U.S. Attorney's
6
Office isn't on board. So, I spoke with
about the case,
7
and he spoke with Alex, and they gave the green light."
8
So, that -- that actually appears to be an initial
9
contact with
that she's talking about prior to the
10
briefing of you, so, way early when the case first came in in
11
May of 2006. Do you recall being contacted or having a
12
conversation with --
13
A
Mm-hmm.
14
Q
--
about that case so early?
15
A
Again, the early recollection, whenever -- whenever
16
it might have taken place, was I was made aware of the
17
matter. It seemed a reasonable matter to pursue, and that's
18
the level of detail that I recall.
19
Q
So, if
said back in the day that she got from
20
you all the green light, what did you understand her to be
21
being authorized to do -- authorize may be too strong a word,
22
but --
23
A
So, to pursue -- to investigate -- to pursue --
24
Q
Yeah.
25
A
-- to someone, you know, I -- I'm speculating here,
EFTA00009268

=== Page 41 ===
Page 41
1
but there's a case, and they want to know, should we spend
2
our time on this? And the answer is it seems reasonable.
3 Sure.
4
Q
Okay, and do you -- do you recall making that
5
explicit to her?
6
A
I -- I don't, and -- and it wouldn't have been my
7
practice to -- to sort of make it explicit to -- yeah, go
8
spend your time, as opposed to, thank you for letting me
9
know, that sounds reasonable.
10
Q
All right.
11
A
And whatever, you know, details it looks like based
12
on Exhibit 1, there was subsequent follow up between her and
13
, or with her and the management team, and they said, you
14 know, go back, work on A, B, and C.
15
0
Do you know what
was talking about
16 when she referred to something happening to a federal
17
prosecution if the U.S. Attorney is not on board? Had there
18
been a case in which you were not supportive of a particular
19 prosecution that was being proposed?
20
A
None -- none that I recall, and -- and I knew that
21
what has happened to the state prosecution can happen to a
22
federal prosecution if the U.S. Attorney's not on board. I
23
don't recall any federal prosecution that I wasn't supportive
24 of, at least in -- in this context.
25
Q
What do you mean by this context?
EFTA00009269

=== Page 42 ===
Page 42
1
A
It was my way of narrowing an answer so I didn't
2
spend the time to go through every office and every division.
3
For the most part, as I sit here, I'm sort of running through
4
each office. I don't recall any, and -- and if I could,
5
based on this -- on Exhibit 2, I'm not sure that she's
6
referring to a specific case as opposed to concerns that the
7
state prosecution started at point -- you know, with charges
8
that required jail time and ended up somewhere else, and it
9
may have been because management --
10
Q
All right.
11
A
-- wasn't.
12
Q
But that's -- that's a current -- a reading of --
13
A
Yeah.
14
Q
-- this, rather --
15
A
That -- that's my --
16
Q
-- than a recollection?
17
A
-- that's my reading, not --
18
Q
All right. Based on the early description you got
19
of the case --
20
A
Right.
21
Q
-- did you have any idea how many victims were
22
involved?
23
A
I did not.
24
Q
Did you know what the name of the case was? What
25
the investigation's name was? You know, cases get names.
EFTA00009270

=== Page 43 ===
Page 43
1
A
So, I know that based on review of the
2
correspondence, I may have known that then. I did not
3
independently recall that.
4
0
That being Operation Leap Year?
5
A
Correct.
6
0
All right, and do you know where that comes from?
7
A
I have well, I mean, other than February 20 --
8
yeah, I don't know.
9
Q
Well, the original allegations that came in
10
involved 28 victims, and then subsequently
advised that
11
she was uncovering more victims, so there were --
12
A
Yeah.
13
Q
-- over 30 victims.
14
A
I --
15
Q
Well over 30.
16
A
I did not know that.
17
Q
All right. You did not -- you -- as you sit here
18
today, you didn't know it?
19
A
I don't recall knowing that.
20
Q
But is it -- is it reasonable that the number of
21
victims would be one of the factors that you would have been
22
informed of at the time?
23
A
I -- I don't know. I -- it all depends how
24
detailed that briefing was. Again, as a typical matter early
25 on, this is what is being done. I would trust my AUSAs and
EFTA00009271

=== Page 44 ===
Page 44
1
my management staff --
2
Q
Right.
3
A
-- to pursue it. It wouldn't be a, here are all
4
the facts associated with this case, just heads up. There is
5
a high profile case involving a very wealthy man abusing
6
young women, a state attorney is prosecuting, but you know,
7
there's dissatisfaction. I wanted to give you a heads up,
8
both to inform me, but also so that I'm aware in my
9
interactions with -- with other Palm Beach officials.
10
Q
Okay. Based on whatever information you got at the
11
time, did you think that there was a federal interest to be
12
served by pursuing a federal prosecution potentially?
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
And what was that?
15
A
So, the exploitation of young women.
16
Q
Girls.
17
A
Girls.
18
Q
I want to be -- I want to be --
19
A
Minors. Minor females.
20
Q
All right. I -- you know, for a -- for a sort of a
21
glossary convention --
22
A
Right.
23
Q
-- that we are using is -- and we can use in this
24
interview, is girls --
25
A
Right.
EFTA00009272

=== Page 45 ===
Page 45
1
Q
-- for the victims who at the time of the conduct
2
were minors, and women, for those who were not, even though
3
the girls at a later time became age of --
4
A
Fair.
5
Q
-- majority.
6
A
Fair.
7
Q
Okay. So, here, we're really talking about the
8
girls --
9
A
Okay.
10
Q
-- who were victims.
11
A
Yeah, yeah.
12
Q
Okay.
13
A
Girls, minor females. I just don't -- sometimes
14
that term is viewed differently. And so --
15
Q
Right.
16
A
Yeah, so the exploitation of girls or minor
17
females, and that certainly is an important federal interest.
18
Q
Well, and is the number and the breadth of the
19
scheme -- the scope of the activity also a factor there? In
20
other words, it wasn't one or two on one or two occasions.
21
A
So, there's several factors that probably go into
22
what's the federal interest. The acts, the sordidness of the
23
acts, the -- the number, the likelihood or the importance of
24
registration was important to my mind because that -- that
25
goes to future prevention to putting the community on notice.
EFTA00009273

=== Page 46 ===
Page 46
1
Q
And were you aware that the individual in this
2
case, Epstein, also had homes in other districts, and that
3
there were -- it was an interstate activity on his part, the
4
interstate travel and so on?
5
A
I --
6
MR. HERRON: I'm sorry, let me just - -- we're still
7
in the original intake time frame --
8
MS.
: Yes.
9
MR. HERRON: -- here?
10
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Again, for the intake time, I
11
can't -- I can't speak to the details, because I don't
12
remember what the extent of that -- that intake briefing.
13
BY MS.
:
14
Q
But as I -- as I -- as I --
15
A
Could I -- could I ask --
16
Q
Yes.
17
A
-- a question? Was there - -- was there a clear
18
briefing as opposed to a heads up based on the record?
19
0
Yes. That
came to Miami to conduct
20
a briefing of you and --
21
A Okay.
22
Q
--
in order to tell you about this
23
case, and get from you --
24
A Okay.
25
Q
-- a green light - --
EFTA00009274

=== Page 47 ===
Page 47
1
A
I --
2
0
-- to proceed with it.
3
A
I ask, because I recall an e-mail, and I don't know
4
what the time would have been, where she's coming to Miami,
5 and
says, why don't you stop by my office first?
6
Q
Right.
7
A
And -- and -- and I keep -- I would -- I would
8
speculate that, why don't you stop by my office first is, why
9
don't you give me a bunch of details, and then we will walk
10
across to the U.S. Attorney --
11
Q
Right.
12
A
-- and fill him in, and so that would have been
13
almost a two-tiered discussion.
14
0
And is that --
15
A
And I don't know if that -- if that -- the timeline
16
on that e-mail is when you say briefing.
17
Q
Well, we are -- we are asking --
18
A
I --
19
Q
What it -- what it would --
20
A
Yeah.
21
Q
-- be.
22
A
I'm speaking just based on review of the record,
23
not based on recollection here.
24
Q
All right. So, you have -- to be clear, you have
25
no recollection of any specific briefing in 2006?
EFTA00009275

=== Page 48 ===
Page 48
1
A
I accept that I was made aware of the matter.
2
O
Okay.
3
A
I can't say how or in what context or to what
4
degree of detail.
5
Q
Or by whom?
6
A
Or by whom. I knew the matter -- it's easier to
7
recollect at least for me what I knew as opposed to who told
8
me what.
9
Q
All right. All right. At this point, would you
10
have had -- did you have -- if you -- at any point, did you
11
have any reservation about investigating and potentially
12
prosecuting Jeffrey Epstein, a reservation stemming from his
13
wealth, and reported standing in the community at all, and
14
influence?
15
A
No, and we had prosecuted lots of influential folks
16
in the office. So, while he had wealth, it's not unusual --
17
UBS was in the office at the time. I mentioned several high
18
profile Palm Beach public corruption cases.
19
Q
So, there was no concern about possible negative
20
blowback in the press or the community or even at Main
21
Justice if you went after someone like Jeffrey Epstein?
22
A
There was no concern stemming from his wealth or
23
his status.
24
Q
What would it have stemmed from?
25
A
At some point, I think there was concerns regarding
EFTA00009276

=== Page 49 ===
Page 49
1 the -- the law, and we'll probably get into that. I alluded
2 to that earlier in the overview. I don't know if that would
3 have been developed this early on, but -- but that's not a
4
function of his wealth. That's a function of the fact
5 pattern.
6
Q
Right. Right. Okay. So, as you mentioned petite
7
policy concerns, petite policy, petite policy, could you tell
8
us what your position was on the -- on the policy as it
9
applied in this case as you understood it from -- in the
10
beginning?
11
A
So -- so, the policy, you know, on its face,
12
doesn't specifically apply. Based on Exhibit 1, I'm now
13
inferring, not recalling, it looks like either
on her
14 own, or
asked for a -- or, Mr.
, asked for a
15
petite policy waiver memo to be prepared, in part on the
16
assumption that the state prosecution may or may not have
17 gone for it.
18
I don't know, but I know -- I do recall that early
19 on, this was unusual, because it had been -- he had been
20 arrested or arraigned. It was going forward on the part of
21 the state, and so here is the big bad federal government
22 stepping on a sovereign, you know, state, saying you're not
23 doing enough, and to my mind, when, you know, the whole idea
24 of the petite policy is to recognize that that estate has --
25 you know, is an independent entity, and that we should
EFTA00009277

=== Page 50 ===
Page 50
1
presume that what they're doing is correct, even if we don't
2
like the outcome, except in the most unusual of
3 circumstances.
4
2
And what kinds of -- well, so, the petite policy
5
exists because there's a recognition that there are cases
6
that are appropriately pursued. I mean, you were the head of
7
the civil rights division, after all.
8
A
Correct, which is why I say except in the most
9
appropriate of circumstances.
10
Q
Right.
11
A
But let me add that based on this, I was
12
comfortable, you know, saying, let's go forward, because the
13
lack of jail time, you know, to use -- to use petite policy
14
language, a plea that did not include jail time or
15
registration would seem like a manifest injustice.
16
Q
All right. So, did you have any doubt that you'd
17
get a waiver if you applied for one?
18
A
I'm not -- so -- so, I'm now speculating. I don't
19
recall, but I'm not sure I would have said, is there a doubt
20
that I'd get a waiver as opposed to, is this something I feel
21 comfortable doing, or not? And --
22
Q
And this being the prosecution, or this being
23 the -- applying for a waiver?
24
A
Applying for a waiver. And so, you know, either
25
main justice gives it or doesn't give it. That doesn't mean
EFTA00009278

=== Page 51 ===
Page 51
1
you don't apply for it if you think it's the right thing to
2 do.
3
So, for example, in the UBS case, which was one of
4
our big tax, you know, prosecutions, we asked for a Bank of
5
Nova Scotia --
6
Q
Mm-hmm.
7
A
-- authorization to the Bank of Nova Scotia
8
subpoena, and I didn't think Main Justice would -- you know,
9
I pushed really hard, and I got into the weeds in that case
10
for that purpose, but I still thought, let's go for it, and
11
we did, and Main Justice didn't give in to it, and that's
12
okay. That's how it works.
13
0
Okay. So, they denied that request?
14
A
They denied that request, and I say that as an
15
example of -- as a typical matter, I don't think what's main
16
justice going to say, as opposed to how do we -- how should
17
we approach this matter?
18
Q
I don't understand about what you mean by, how
19
should we approach this matter.
20
A
So, honestly, how do I -- how do I explain this?
21
So, I think there's a difference in saying, let me predict
22
how main justice will come out, and follow that prediction,
23
versus, folks, what do you all think? Okay. If we're
24
comfortable with this, let's write it up, and let's see what
25
Main Justice does.
EFTA00009279

=== Page 52 ===
Page 52
1
One is trying to predict what folks in this
2
building are going to think. Another one is trying to
3
predict -- another one is saying, what do we in Miami think,
4
and then let main justice figure it out.
5
Q
And which is the approach you typically took?
6
A
And my point is the approach that I typically took
7
is, what do we think, and let main justice give it a thumbs
8
up or a thumbs down.
9
Q
All right, and in this case, did you do that with
10
regard to the petite policy?
11
A
So, in this case, we didn't get that far in that we
12
didn't have to submit to DOJ.
13
Q
Mm-hmm.
14
A
But -- but we were approaching it not based on what
15
main justice was going to think, but what do we feel is the
16
right outcome in this office.
17
0
So, as I understand, the bottom line is that you
18
didn't -- as I hear you, I believe you're saying that you
19
didn't stand down, or in any way cease or limit pursuing this
20
case on petite policy grounds. You pursued it as you -- as
21
you would --
22
A
So, we went forward with the matter, although there
23
were petite policy concerns in the background. So -- so
24
you're setting this up as a binary -- as a -- did -- was it a
25
fact -- as a binary, you did not limit yourself on petite
EFTA00009280

=== Page 53 ===
Page 53
1
policy grounds, and I'm pushing back a little bit, because I
2
don't think it's, it's part or it's not, as opposed to when
3
you look at a case, there are all sorts of factors, and it is
4
a factor in how you think of a matter going forward.
5
BY MS.
:
6
Q
If you had those petite policy concerns -- you or
7
members of your staff?
8
A
I would say a combination of me and my management
9
staff.
10
BY MS.
:
11
0
Who? Who?
12
A
I can't -- I can't recreate --
13
0
But who are you dealing with on this case?
14
A
Primarily, it would be my first assistant and
15
criminal chief as I typically -- so, there is, you know, to
16
sort of put it in main justice terms, you know, a line
17
attorney has a deputy section chief and a section chief and a
18
DAG and an AAG, and the AAG usually deals with the section
19
chief, or the DAG. And so, I was dealing with my first
20
assistant and my crim chief.
21
Q
Right, and they were there in Miami.
22
A
And they were there in Miami.
23
Q
And by the way,
first line
24
supervisor was
-
25
A
Correct.
EFTA00009281

=== Page 54 ===
Page 54
1
Q
Do you know why she was not actively participating
2
in this chain of command?
3
A
I noticed that in the correspondence, and I
4
couldn't speak to that.
5
Q
All right.
6
A
But the -- but it goes to the point that if you
7
look at the -- she reported to
, who reported to
,
8
who reported to
, who reported to
- And so, as a
9
typical matter, I tried to empower my first assistant and my
10
criminal chief and my office heads and work through them, not
11
bypass them.
12
Q
In this particular case with regard either to the
13
petite policy --
14
A
Right.
15
0
-- or any other aspect, was there anyone other than
16
that group of five, if you will, in that chain --
17
A
Correct.
18
Q
-- from you down to
through
,
19
--
20
A
Right.
21
Q
-- and
that you were dealing with?
22
A
I can't recall. I -- I can -- I can say as a
23
general matter, it would not be unusual for me to walk
24 down -- walk down the hall and talk to someone that I trust
25 and say, hey, I've got this fact pattern. What do you think?
EFTA00009282

=== Page 55 ===
Page 55
1
Q
Do you recall ever doing that in connection with
2
this case?
3
A
I -- I don't recall the specific briefings or who I
4
talked to. I'm just saying as a general matter that there
5
are folks on my -- on the eighth floor that were in
6
management that I would often just walk down the hall, and --
7
Q
But do you recall doing that --
8
A
I don't --
9
2
-- in this case?
10
A
I don't recall.
11
0
Okay. So, we shared with you in Exhibit 3 a pretty
12
lively exchange between
and
13
You didn't -- we have no reason to believe you saw this
14
before, but it makes some representations about you, and
15
that's why we brought it to your attention.
16
A
Okay.
17
0
Do you recall this e-mail exchange?
18
A
I don't recall the e-mail exchange.
19
Q
I mean, you --
20
A
But I --
21
2
-- didn't see it then. Do you recall having read
22
it before today?
23
A
I recall reviewing it, yes.
24
Q
All right. Okay. So, starting from the end,
25
using
Blackberry, which is a little
EFTA00009283

=== Page 56 ===
Page 56
1
confusing to begin with -- notifies
that -- of a -- of
2
a particular conversation he had with one of the defense
3
attorneys. At this point, what I want to do is draw your
4
attention to the -- the comment, and his response, and we're
5
looking at page --
6
A
Page --
7
Q
-- three.
8
A
-- page three.
9
Q
So, in the third paragraph --
10
A
Yeah.
11
0
-- "it was made clear to you by the U.S. Attorney
12
and the first assistant from the time when you were first
13
authorized to investigate Mr. Epstein that the office had
14
concerns about taking the case because of petite policy and a
15
number of legal issues." And then later he says that, "You
16
were never given authorization by anyone to seek an
17
indictment in this case."
18
And -- close quote -- and then on the first page,
19
presents her version of that original contact
20
with you, meeting with you, at the bottom of the page.
21
Halfway through the last paragraph, she says, "My
22
recollection of the original meeting with Alex and
is
23
quite different than your summary. In that meeting, I
24
summarized the case and the state attorney's office handling
25
of it."
EFTA00009284

=== Page 57 ===
Page 57
1
"I acknowledged that we needed to do work to
2
collect the evidence establishing a federal nexus, and I
3
noted the time and month," -- that -- I'm sorry, "I noted the
4
time and money that would be required for an investigation.
5
I said I was willing to invest time and the FBI was willing
6
to invest the money, but I didn't want to get to the end of
7
it," -- "to the end, and then have the office be intimidated
8
by the high powered lawyers. I was assured that would not
9
happen." Can you tell us which version of that initial --
10
which version --
11
A
Right.
12
0
-- is correct?
13
A
So, again, I don't remember that initial briefing,
14
so I can't tell you which version is correct. I would also
15
say that it's possible neither version is correct and that
16
there's a little bit of truth -- now I'm just speculating --
17
Q
All right.
18
A
-- that there's a little bit of truth in either
19
one, because it's certainly possible to say, I hear you,
20
righteous case, go forward and investigate, work on the
21
federal nexus, which is what Exhibit 3 is saying, go work on
22
the federal nexus and find evidence for the federal nexus.
23
But we have concerns about petite policy and legal matters,
24
so there's a lot of work to be done.
25
Q
So, what kind of a direction does that amount to
EFTA00009285

=== Page 58 ===
Page 58
1
for the line AUSA? What's her job then?
2
A
So, the job would then be to go back and
3
investigate, and develop facts and report back.
4
Q
And if she developed enough facts, and supportive
5
law to present proposed prosecution?
6
A
Right.
7
0
Okay.
8
A
And so -- so, a lot of times in this he said, she
9
said, there's a little bit of truth to both sides of the
10
discussion. I'm just -- I'm just saying as a general matter,
11
I wouldn't -- your questions are sometimes either or, and
12
sometimes --
13
0
Right.
14
A
-- it can be a combination of both.
15
Q
All right, and -- but in fact you don't recall?
16
A
But I'm speculating.
17
Q
All right. Is there anything in either of those
18
that two accounts -- two versions that you say didn't happen,
19
couldn't happen?
20
A
I can't, because I don't recall it. I can't --
21
Q
Okay.
22
A
-- speak to that. I would speculate that there's
23
probably a little bit of truth on both sides that -- and if
24
you read it closely, you'll see that
acknowledges the
25
need to work on a federal nexus. So, that goes to, you know,
EFTA00009286

=== Page 59 ===
Page 59
1 where
-- or, Mr.
I'm sorry, I'm calling -- I'm
2
using first names.
3
Q
Its' all right.
4
A
So, I'm going to just start --
5
Q
This is an informal interview.
6
A
I'm going to just start using first names. I don't
7
mean that disrespectfully -- where, you know,
says, you
8
know, because of petite policy and legal issues, and
is
9
acknowledging the legal issues, because she's saying needed
10
work to do to collect evidence establishing the federal
11
nexus.
12
OF
All right.
13
A
So --
14
Q
Yeah.
15
A
So, they're not as inconsistent as presented - --
16
Q
All right.
17
A
-- arguably.
18
Q
Back in 2006, in this Exhibit No. 1,
19
tells you in his e-mail that the indictment target date is
20
August 25, 2006.
21
A
Mm-hmm.
22
Q
In other words, very shortly --
23
A
Right.
24
Q
-- thereafter, within a month or SO. Do you know
25
why the line AUSA,
, was keen on getting the
EFTA00009287

=== Page 60 ===
Page 60
1
federal case against Epstein brought on a fairly -- on a
2
quick basis?
3
A
So, I can't speak to that, and -- and can I -- can
4
I ask, based on your record, was that that the -- was that
5
the state indictment target date, or was that --
6
Q
He already --
7
A
-- a federal --
8
Q
-- Epstein had already been indicted and arraigned
9
on the --
10
A
Right.
11
Q
-- indictment, so that's the federal.
12
A
So -- so, that's --
13
Q
That's talking about a federal indictment.
14
A
All right.
15
Q
The point --
16
A
Correct.
17
Q
-- is that early on --
18
A
Right.
19
0
-- the investigative team, the FBI --
20
A
Right.
21
Q
-- and
were hot to trot to get
22
this --
23
A
Right.
24
Q
-- case moving from a federal standpoint. That may
25
well have been quite unrealistic given --
EFTA00009288

=== Page 61 ===
Page 61
1
A
Correct.
2
Q
-- all of the issues that we've been discussing,
3
but the question is, do you know why there was some urgency?
4
A
I haven't the slightest idea. When was it -- when
5
was it initially brought to the office?
6
Q
It was brought to the office in May of --
7
A
Right.
8
Q
-- 2006.
9
A
That -- that would be a really, really fast
10
timeline.
11
0
Right. So, the question is, aspirational though it
12
may have been, there was a hope --
13
A
I --
14
0
-- to get it done quickly.
15
A
Right.
16
2
So, the question is, can you think of factors that
17
would have led a prosecutor to want to pursue --
18
A
I --
19
Q
-- this quickly?
20
A
I don't recall. I can speculate that
was
21
very hard charging and wanted to do a lot, and --
22
Q
Was that your experience of her?
23
A
So, based on this, I see, you know, so, Exhibit 2
24
is, you know --
25
Q
Excuse me, would -- but just from your memory, is
EFTA00009289

=== Page 62 ===
Page 62
1
that your recollection of how
operated? Hard charging?
2
A
Yeah. I'd say -- so, a lot of really good
3
prosecutors are hard charging. That's --
4
Q
All right.
5
A
-- that's part of the job description.
6
Q
Okay.
7
A
And so, yes.
8
Q
Okay. Did -- so, in the child sex offender
9
context, are you familiar with a -- the belief on the part of
10
people who do that kind of case, as did
and
11
others in your office -- that those offenders typically don't
12
stop offending, even after somebody's onto them? So that
13
there was a concern that he -- that in this case, Jeffrey
14
Epstein might be continuing to offend, and therefore getting
15
him off the streets was --
16
A
Right.
17
Q
-- a priority?
18
A
I have heard that discussed recently in the media.
19
I don't recollect that back in -- part of a discussion back
20
in 2006.
21
Q
All right. Okay. Do you recall that
22
-- and this is just a, do you recall --
23
A
Mm-hmm.
24
Q
-- that she periodically would give you in that
25
early period of 2006, updates -- written updates?
EFTA00009290

=== Page 63 ===
Page 63
1
A
I don't.
2
Q
Did you think that it was appropriate for a line
3
AUSA to be shooting e-mails updating on a case that was under
4
investigation directly to you and your first assistant?
5
A
It was unusual, and -- and so, so, did I think of
6
a -- look, I can't reconstruct what I would have thought, but
7
you know, you're asking not just what did I know, but what
8
would I have thought 12 years ago.
9
But I can say that based on general practice, it
10
would have been unusual, and my best guess as to how I would
11
have reacted would have been, hey,
, this is unusual, is
12
the chain being fully informed? Are feathers being --
13
Q
Right.
14
A
-- ruffled? Figure it out, because, you know, you
15
asked me early on to characterize
qualities. I think
16
one of the things that I said was he was very good at
17
smoothing things --
18
Q
Mm-hmm.
19
A
-- over. And sort of the interaction, because he
20
was respected, and so I might say, that's kind of unusual.
21
Go figure it out.
22
Q
But you wouldn't necessarily jump that chain
23
yourself, and be --
24
A
I --
25
Q
-- in direct communication?
EFTA00009291

=== Page 64 ===
Page 64
1
A
I tended not to --
2
Q
Okay.
3
A
-- do that.
4
BY
:
5
Q
Would she have sent this to you -- something
6
unusual, if she thought that this was a case that you wanted
7
to be involved in?
8
A
Even in -- even in those, I tried to be, as a
9
general matter, fairly sensitive to the chain, because I had
10
found that if you start jumping the chain too much, even if
11
you become informed, managers feel, you know, out of -- out
12
of the loop, and that's not -- that's not conducive to sort
13
of allowing them to do their job of supervising. It's a big
14
enough office, you have to empower your folks to do their
15 jobs.
16
Q
So the concern on your part would not be that she
17
was communicating directly to you, but that as long as all of
18
the chain was informed as well?
19
A
Yeah. I mean, if you're -- if you're
,
20
or you know, if you're
, or you know, don't you want to
21
talk to the line attorney before the line attorney talks to
22
your boss?
23
And so, it's not just informed, but it's respecting
24
your supervisor. And it's a difficult balance, because often
25
really good AUSAs are also the ones that, you know, just want
EFTA00009292

=== Page 65 ===
Page 65
1
to get things done.
2
BY MS.
3
0
Did you have any reason to believe during this
4
investigative phase that
was not pursuing
5
this case -- this investigation adequately, appropriately,
6
and fully?
7
A
No, I did not.
8
Q
Did you --
9
A
Not to my recollection.
10
Q
Did you feel that she did not have appropriate
11
oversight?
12
A
Not to my recollection.
13
0
Okay. Do you -- did you feel that she had any
14
resource problem? That is, did she have, as far as you knew,
15
sufficient resources available to pursue her investigation?
16
A
To my recollection, yes, I noted her early -- you
17
know, I noted more recently the e-mail where -- you know,
18
that was shared with me by
about resource concerns, and
19
I would just note that I would allow the management chain to
20
figure that out.
21
Q
All right. Were you -- did you at any point
22
consider, based on what you then knew, expanding the scope of
23
the investigation? Did you ever suggest or propose that
24
instead of simply looking at Epstein's conduct in West Palm
25
Beach vis a vis these girls, that the federal authorities
EFTA00009293

=== Page 66 ===
Page 66
1
could use their resources to look at other aspects of
2
Epstein's activities?
3
A
So, I -- so, I think it's important to take a step
4
back, and I was aware of any number of cases going on in the
5
office, and based on what that stage of case was at, I would
6
get more involved for a time.
7
It wasn't my practice to direct AUSAs in how they
8
should investigate, or what the scope of a case investigation
9
should be. They -- the Miami office, before I got there, and
10
after I left, had a reputation for knowing their stuff. It's
11
a large office. It's got good people. I would assume that
12
AUSAs and their management would follow their natural leads.
13
0
All right. Were you aware that during this
14
period -- and by this period, I'm talking about the
15
investigative period from the time that the case came in in
16
mid-2006 --
17
A
Right.
18
Q
-- up until May 1 when
put forth
19
her pros memo --
20
A
Right.
21
Q
-- and proposed indictment. During that sort of
22
ten month period, or almost a year, were you aware that
23
defense counsel for Epstein were reaching out to
24
and to
to pitch their view of how the
25 case --
EFTA00009294

=== Page 67 ===
Page 67
1
A
Right.
2
2
-- should proceed?
3
A
So, I don't have a specific recollection of who
4
reached out at what time. I would assume as a general matter
5
that defense counsel -- defense counsel were clearly involved
6
before the case came to the office. and so, I would assume
7
that defense counsel would remain involved while the office
8
was investigating. I say that not based on independent
9
recollection, but --
10
Q
Right.
11
A
-- why would they stop being involved?
12
0
And is it in your experience as a U.S. Attorney,
13
was it common or uncommon for defense counsel to approach the
14
line prosecutor and supervisor to make whatever pitch they
15
want with respect to a prosecution?
16
A
Fairly common.
17
Q
All right, and was it also common for those
18
approaches to be entertained? In other words, for the line
19
AUSA and supervisor --
20
A
Right.
21
Q
-- to meet with defense counsel?
22
A
As a -- as a general matter, yeah.
23
Q
And did you view that as appropriate?
24
A
As a general matter, it was typical. It happened
25
before I got there, and is probably happening now.
EFTA00009295

=== Page 68 ===
Page 68
1
Q
And you view it as an appropriate part of the
2
process?
Do you?
3
A
I think AUSAs need to have discretion to meet with
4
defense counsel, and defense counsel certainly should be able
5
to present perspectives.
6
Q
There is an outlook -- this is Exhibit 4, and this
7
is something --
8
A
Okay.
9
Q
-- it's really sort of a point of information here.
10
This is an outlook that shows you and
and
had
11
a scheduled meeting with Roy Black.
12
A
Mm-hmm.
13
Q
Roy Black, a prominent --
14
A
Right.
15
Q
-- local criminal defense attorney at the time in
16
the Miami area. This was a meeting scheduled in your office
17
for the 23rd of February of 2007. Do you have any -- he was
18
a -- he at the time --
19
A
Right.
20
Q
-- was one of Epstein's attorneys. Do you have any
21
idea whether this meeting related to Epstein or some other
22
case?
23
A
I don't. I noticed that and I don't know whether
24
it was this or another matter.
25
Q
But you have not particular recollection of meeting
EFTA00009296

=== Page 69 ===
Page 69
1
with him on the Epstein matter --
2
A
I don't.
3
0
-- at this time? Okay. So, I want to --
4
A
And let me note, I think most of the correspondence
5
was from other attorneys and not him. And so, yeah.
6
Q
All right. Are you -- are you okay? Do you want
7
to take a short break, or --
8
A
Yeah.
9
Q
Do you --
10
A
Let's -- what time is it? Oh, 11:00.
11
0
Five minutes?
12
A
Yeah.
13
0
Five minutes?
14
A
Yeah. Let's take a five minute break.
15
Q
Off the record.
16
(Off the record.)
17
BY MS.
:
18
0
All right, back on the record at 11:12, having
19
broken at 11:00. Mr. Acosta, we're going to move to that
20
time frame I mentioned a moment ago, May of 2007 when
21
submitted her prosecution memo of more than 80
22
pages, and her proposed indictment -- her initial proposed
23
indictment, which was more than 50 pages.
24
She submitted that by transmittal memo to her
25
entire chain,
,
,
,
EFTA00009297

=== Page 70 ===
Page 70
1
, and you. Was that a typical way for an indictment
2
and proposed prosecution? The memo to come?
3
A
To my recollection, it was not, and I don't recall
4
that happening in other cases. I'm trying -- I'm hesitating,
5
just because I'm trying to think through if there's -- I
6
don't have any recollection of it happening in another case.
7
Q
Why do you think it happened in this case? And who
8
caused it to happen?
9
A
I don't know, and I don't know.
10
Q
All right. All right. So, you -- when you --
11
before you saw it -- I don't know if you even knew about
12
it -- you -- by reference to Exhibit 6, you learned
13
essentially from
that the FBI was planning to do
14
a press conference two weeks after that, and
told
15
this office has not approved the indictment,
16
therefore, "please do not commit us to anything at this
17
time." " Were you -- and eventually that e-mail chain --
18
A
Right.
19
Q
-- gets to you, apparently by blind carbon, because
20
there's no indication you actually get it.
21
A
Right.
22
Q
But you advise Alicia Valle, who I think was your
23
press person --
24
A
Correct.
25
Q
-- that, "
hasn't even finished her
EFTA00009298

=== Page 71 ===
Page 71
1
recommendation to
, i.e., we are a long way off." So,
2
did you have any idea why the FBI was planning a press
3
conference on Epstein?
4
A
I don't -- I don't know if I did. I don't recall
5 if I did.
6
0
Was it -- how typical was it for the FBI to plan a
7
press conference on an indicted - on a case that was being
8
indicted at the time of an indictment or arrest without
9
coordinating that with you and your office?
10
A
Under
, highly atypical.
11
Q
He was the SAC at the time?
12
A
He was the SAC -- he was the SAC -- -- I know he was
13
the SAC at the time as of September, and I'm almost certain
14
he was the SAC at the time.
15
Q
All right. And when you said that we are a long
16
way off, and
hasn't even finished her recommendation to
17
/ can -- do you know whether you had any idea that she
18
had actually submitted her pros memo, and that she had made a
19
recommendation to
?
20
A
I can't -- I can't recollect --
21
Q
Okay.
22
A
-- but I'll take my words as reflective of, if I
23
say she hasn't finished her recommendation, then I assume she
24
hasn't finished her recommendation, but I don't recall --
25
Q
Does that mean --
EFTA00009299

=== Page 72 ===
Page 72
1
A
-- that level of detail.
2
Q
-- as you -- as you look at your own words, does
3
that suggest to you that you were unaware as of that moment
4
that she'd actually submitted her pros memo?
5
A
That suggests that I would not have been aware that
6
she submitted it. If -- you know, because it sounds like I'm
7
saying she hasn't even submitted her memo to
. So --
8
Q
All right.
9
A
-- we're a long way off.
10
Q
All right, so, is --
11
A
But again, this is based on practice, not
12
recollection.
13
Q
All right, and when you said we are a long way off,
14
did that reflect, if you recall, an assessment of the length
15
of time to get to a pros --
16
A
Right.
17
Q
-- memo, a recommendation, and an assessment of
18
that, or your expectation that even when you saw a pros memo
19
and an indictment, it would be a long process before it was
20
approved?
21
A
So, I would assume -- and again, this is just based
22
on speculating from the way that I write, that I'm thinking
23
she hasn't submitted her recommendation to
,
needs
24
to review it.
25
He may -- you know, he'd probably want to talk to
EFTA00009300

=== Page 73 ===
Page 73
1
.
It needs to be scrubbed. You know, this could be --
2
this ain't happening next week.
3
0
All right, but in your -- do you have any reason to
4
believe that whatever that process is that you were
5
describing would be any -- any different in any particular
6
measure in this case from the ordinary complex case?
7
A
So, from my language, I would take that it's the
8
same process, but that there is a process, and the process
9
hasn't yet been followed.
10
Q
All right. Okay.
11
A
So, it would be the typical process in a typical
12
complex case.
13
0
All right, and is it fair to characterize this as a
14
relatively complex case, given the legal issues?
15
A
I think it is, yes.
16
Q
Okay. In Exhibit 8, you actually got the -- in
17
Exhibit 7, you see that in the bottom part of that that you
18
received a copy of the pros memo on the second page of that
19
exhibit at the top.
20
A
Right.
21
Q
is forwarding to you the pros memo.
22
A
Right.
23
Q
In Exhibit 8, you see that
is
24
forwarding or sending to that chain, excluding
25
, that is,
,
,
,
and you, additional
EFTA00009301

=== Page 74 ===
Page 74
1
items in Operation Leap Year, and that's a summary of the
2
indictment, and evidence regarding the individual victims.
3
Okay? So, as of May 11, you had before you the pros memo,
4
the proposed indictment, and this substantial amount of
5
additional --
6
A
Right.
7
OF
-- information. Did you read the pros memo?
8
A
Right. So, I don't recall -- and I know you're
9
going to say, why don't I, but this was a long time ago. I
10
don't recall if I read it, or if I went back to the office
11
and sat down with
and
and went over it. I can't
12
recall from this far. I can say that it looks based on this
13
that I was at the U.S. Attorney's conference.
14
0
Mm-hmm.
15
A
The idea of printing this out on a hotel printer, I
16
wouldn't -- I can't believe I would have printed this out on
17
a hotel printer.
18
Q
Let alone read it on an airplane, correct?
19
A
Let alone read it on an airplane. That just
20
wouldn't --
21
0
Right.
22
A
-- have been my practice.
23
Q
But going back -- arriving back --
24
A
Right.
25
Q
-- to your office, was it your practice to take
EFTA00009302

=== Page 75 ===
Page 75
1
voluminous documents like this and go through them yourself,
2
or did you rely on your senior staff?
3
A
I would typically rely on senior staff. They --
4
they're the experienced ones that have seen these matters
5
before. They would go through it. We'd sit down. We'd talk
6
about the issues. We might have it in front of us, almost
7
like you've got all those --
8
0
Okay.
9
A
-- binders there, but you know, you're calling my
10
attention to particular issues, and we'd sort of talk it
11
through.
12
Q
And do you recall doing that in this case?
13
A
I recall having discussions with senior staff about
14
this case.
15
Q
Who?
16
A
Certainly
and
at various points, and
17
I can't say that I did that in May versus April versus June.
18
I can't give you --
19
Q
All right.
20
A
-- timelines.
21
Q
Well, we're talking now about May.
22
A
Right.
23
Q
Because you've got the actual --
24
A
Yeah.
25
0
-- process.
EFTA00009303

=== Page 76 ===
Page 76
1
A
It would have been my practice based on this to go
2
back and discuss it, and so based on my practiced, I would
3
have gone back and likely discussed it. I doubt I would have
4
printed this out at whatever hotel I was at.
5
Q
But even when you got back to the office, would you
6
have had somebody print it out so you would've had it
7
available?
8
A
I may have had someone print it out so it's
9
available. I may have focused on particular parts of it.
10
0
What kinds of issues would you have focused on? In
11
other words -- in other words, some might go straight to the
12
facts.
13
A
Right.
14
0
Some might be interested in the legal theories.
15
What was -- what was your approach?
16
A
So, I think that depended on the case.
17
Q
Okay.
18
A
Here, you had legal questions, and you also had --
19
had witness issues, and I would think those would have been
20
the two primary areas.
21
Q
Would you have gone through the indictment and the
22
pros memo and all of those other materials, or just relied on
23
your experience seeing your people,
and
?
24
A
As a general practice, probably some combination.
25
As a general -- a general recollection, the concerns in this
EFTA00009304

=== Page 77 ===
Page 77
1
case weren't about the sordid details of what happened,
2
because we believed he did what he did. The concerns were
3
about some of the legal issues around it, and some of the
4
issues in terms of testimony.
5
Q
Of the victims?
6
A
Of the victims.
7
Q
All right. On page --
8
A
And I say that because that would have been what I
9
would naturally focus on as opposed to reading the sordid
10
details, because I think everyone believed the victims.
11
Q
All right. Exhibit 9 is an e-mail that you are not
12
on, but that -- notes that
is advising
that
13
you,
,
"Has your memo and Lefcourt's letter." " Gerald
14
Lefcourt was --
15
A
Mm-hmm.
16
Q
-- a New York attorney who was one of the members
17
of the Epstein defense team. Did you know him?
18
A
I did not.
19
0
Did you ever encounter him as far as you recall?
20
A
I did not.
21
Q
All right. He had, according to the documents we
22
have, made two substantial submissions to
and
23
in --
24
A
Right.
25
Q
-- February of that year in an effort to dissuade
EFTA00009305

=== Page 78 ===
Page 78
1
them from pursuing a prosecution, and we have every reason to
2
believe and no reason not to believe that that's what is
3
being referred to. Do you recall reviewing substantial
4
submissions from defense counsel at this time attacking in
5
very granular detail --
6
A
Mm-hmm.
7
Q
-- the credibility of the witnesses, and so on?
8
A
I don't recall reviewing those. Again, I recall
9
discussions with my senior team about issues that included
10
the credibility, and I'm not sure if it's -- credibility is
11
the right word, but how the victims would do on the stands.
12
Q
Okay, and who do you recall talking to you about
13
that?
14
A
So, some combination of
and
would have
15
bene the likely -- I recall the discussion. I don't recall
16
whether it was
,
or whether it was
or
, but the
17
logical inference would have been it would have been some
18
combination of
and
-
19
2
has told us that during this period, he
20
was not actively involved in this case --
21
A
Mm-hmm.
22
0
-- but that
was. Would that be
23
consistent with your memory, or would --
24
A
That -- sure, it -- I mean, they were a team. They
25
became more or less involved based on needs.
EFTA00009306

=== Page 79 ===
Page 79
1
Q
And was there any particular -- if
was
2
working with you directly on reporting --
3
A
Right.
4
Q
-- on his assessment of this case, was there any
5
reason for
to be involved?
6
A
I might bounce ideas off him. I mean, he was -- he
7
was right across, so we worked closely, but you know,
8
was the criminal chief, and if he was in the weeds,
, I
9
would speculate would sort of, much like me, defer to his
10
judgement, because they've known each other, and they've
11
worked together, and they had a good working relationship.
12
Q
And is it -- do we understand correctly that as
13
first assistant,
had a brief that really encompassed
14
the entire office?
15
A
He did.
16
Q
All right.
17
A
He -- so, he supervised the civil, the criminal,
18
the appellate, and the forfeiture.
19
Q
All right. There is here in this e-mail that you
20
did not see back in the day, Exhibit 9, a pushback from
21
regarding the rush that
is in to
22
pursue the case, and he says, "This is obviously a very
23
significant case, and Alex wants to take his time making sure
24
he is comfortable before proceeding." Do you -- can you tell
25
us what the basis would be for, or was, for that assertion by
EFTA00009307

=== Page 80 ===
Page 80
1
?
2
A
So, I can't -- well, I can't tell you from
3
recollection what the basis is. I can -- I can speculate
4
that the materials being transmitted Friday morning -- oh, I
5
guess it was -- yeah, so --
6
&
The 11th.
7
A
Yeah.
8
Q
Friday.
9
A
So, Friday morning, it hasn't been reviewed by
10
anyone in the management chain, much less approved and
11
edited, and
that Monday is saying why don't I have a
12
decision?
13
And -- and so, absent truly extenuating
14
circumstances, typically, you'd have -- give -- you know,
15
it'd go through the management chain up to the U.S. Attorney.
16
And so, he's pushing back, saying, hey, it's been a day, or
17
it's been a weekend. I'm --
18
Q
Right.
19
A
-- I'm just reading between the lines here.
20
Q
Who had authority to sign off on the Epstein
21
prosecution? To, say, indict?
22
A
So, as a delegated matter,
had
23
signature authority.
24
2
Mm-hmm.
25
A
As did -- as did
, as did
, and
EFTA00009308

=== Page 81 ===
Page 81
1
obviously I did. As a practice matter, this is something
2
that would have gone through the chain, and that we would
3
have then discussed.
4
Q
But why up at your level? Is it because it is, as
5
says, "Obviously a very significant case?"
6
A
So, at my level, not only because of the facts,
7
because it's not about the facts, but I do think that there
8
are legal issues that -- that implicated policy, that -- that
9
we were thinking through.
10
0
And what were -- what were the legal issues, and
11
what were the policy issues?
12
A
So -- so, the legal issues, and also factual issues
13
in terms of the witnesses. So, the legal issues -- so, and
14
there's an e-mail from
based on the -- you know, the
15
contemporaneous record that alludes to some of this. In my
16
experience at the civil rights division, trafficking cases
17
involved -- you know, I can -- I can describe some -- some
18
horrific cases of girls being held against their will, you
19 know.
20
You had child pornography matters with young women,
21
sometimes incredibly young, that the office prosecuted. As
22
the trafficking laws were being developed, there was a lot of
23
discussion about, what's the difference between trafficking
24
and solicitation, and that discussion took place as the
25
trafficking laws were being developed. And so, this
EFTA00009309

=== Page 82 ===
Page 82
1
implicated that, and it implicated the -- what is local and
2
what is federal.
3
Q
All right. So, in the first, you're talking -- in
4
the first category, you're talking about the individual
5
charges that had been -- that were being proposed, which
6
included both trafficking and coercion and enticement -- or,
7 enticement.
8
A
Correct.
9
Q
All right. And in the latter, you felt that -- did
10
you -- to what extent did the witness -- victim witness kind
11
of credibility issues implicate policy?
12
A
So -- so, I think I said policy and victim in that.
13
Q
All right.
14
A
In that there was certainly discussion between me
15
and my management about concerns as to how these victims
16
would sort of stand up in court.
17
0
So, what would have -- what would make you
18
comfortable before -- before proceeding? What would make
19
you -- what at that point would have made you comfortable
20
about proceeding?
21
A
So, I think that at this point, I don't think it's
22
what would or would not have made me comfortable, and I'm
23
speculating here. I think it's, it came in on Friday, let's
24
talk this through.
25
Q
But there -- but you've just identified for us
EFTA00009310

=== Page 83 ===
Page 83
1
issues that --
2
A
Issues that --
3
Q
-- in your mind --
4
A
-- we would have --
5
Q
-- had to be resolved.
6
A
-- wanted to talk through.
7
0
All right. Okay. At that point, did you -- to
8
your recollection, have any doubt that some form of
9
indictment or charging instrument against Epstein was likely
10
to be -- become viable?
11
A
So, I don't -- it was a case that I thought it very
12
important that we do something. How that something played
13
out, I think had all along been a matter of discussion.
14
Q
As something other than what the U.S. Attorney's
15
Office does, which is prosecute?
16
A
Well -- well, no, I mean, what the U.S. Attorney's
17
Office does is ensure that justice is served.
18
Q
Right.
19
A
And whether -- and in partnership with state
20
attorneys, and sometimes that means state attorneys take the
21
lead. Sometimes that means the U.S. Attorney's Office takes
22
the lead, and it -- and a lot of times, we actually had, you
23
know, we -- we would share staff, because sometimes it made
24
sense for -- you know, for one part of the other to take the
25 lead.
EFTA00009311

=== Page 84 ===
Page 84
1
So, writ large, I thought throughout it was very
2
important that something happen. There were these concerns
3
all along. I can speculate that this is just a reflection of
4
those continuing concerns.
5
Q
As expressed by you to
in the ordinary
6 course?
7
A
As developed as a group throughout this -- I can --
8
so, if we go back to -- what was the Exhibit?
9
Q
June of -- June of 2006.
10
A
So, Exhibit 3,
says, "In that meeting, I
11
summarized the case and the state attorney's office handling
12
it. I acknowledged that we needed to do work to collect
13
evidence establishing a federal nexus, and I noted the time
14
and money that would be required for an investigation." And
15
so, as far back as that initial meeting, there is the
16
discussion about the federal nexus, and is this a state or a
17
federal --
18
Q
Right.
19
A
-- case?
20
Q
All right. Exhibit 7 is an early e-mail from
21
to you. Early, meaning it proceeds the one --
22
A
Correct.
23
Q
-- we just looked at, and early in that it's right
24
as you're --
25
A
Right.
EFTA00009312

=== Page 85 ===
Page 85
1
Q
-- receiving the pros memo, and you ask him, have
2
you read the memo? And curious why you ask
3
rather than
.
4
A
I don't recall. I can -- I can speculate, and I
5
have two thoughts that I'll speculate. One is,
her
6
direct supervisor.
7
Q
Mm-hmm.
8
A
And I might be thinking --
9
Q
Second line supervisor.
10
A
Her second line supervisor, so why is
sending
11
me this?
, have you read this? I.e., did you jump the
12
chain? Secondly, I think it -- I may have wanted to have
13
multiple opinions on this.
14
Q
Mm-hmm.
15
A
It's most likely that I had talked to
.
16
already, because
and I talked more often, and I'm asking
17
another person in the management chain, hey, what do you
18
think? Let's have multiple opinions on the table here.
19
&
Well, this is the first time other than
that
20
we see you getting a recommendation.
21
A
Right.
22
Q
When
says, he thinks that you should
23
charge him -- you, the office, should charge Epstein. He has
24
issues with the charging strategy proposed by
/ but
25
one, he says, "We all need to get on the same page as to
EFTA00009313

=== Page 86 ===
Page 86
1
whether the statute's covered the conduct, and whether the
2
conduct is the type we should charge. I think the answer to
3
both is yes, although there is some risk on some of the
4
statutes." He proposes that the office start with a
5
complaint, which is not unusual, is it?
6
A
It -- it happens, yes.
7
Q
All right, which allows the defendant to be
8
arrested, and ideally detained, and then the defendant is
9
then highly motivated or incentivized --
10
A
Okay.
11
0
-- to work a pre-indictment resolution. That's
12
what
is proposing. He also notes that it's
13
important to -- in his view, to "cap him with conspiracy
14
counts to make a plea attractive," and the court could give
15
us a hard time with that if we had to dismiss indicted
16
counts.
17
A
Right.
18
Q
Okay. The proposed indictment included one
19
conspiracy -- a conspiracy that has a five year --
20
A
Five year cap.
21
Q
-- statutory maximum, and this notion is that
22
Epstein be charged with a five-year conspiracy count, and
23
take it from there. Do you know what he was referring to
24
when he noted that a court could give you a hard time in
25
dismissing indicted counts in this case?
EFTA00009314

=== Page 87 ===
Page 87
1
A
So -- so, as a typical matter, once there's an
2
indictment, the -- a pre-indictment -- well, by definition, a
3
pre-indictment resolution comes off the table, but in cases
4
of this nature, the resolutions tend to happen before
5
indictment, because once the indictment is done, at least in
6
South Florida, dismissal of charges -- for example, if -- you
7
know, if
is saying, let's think about a 371 with a five
8
year cap a rule 11 --
9
Q
Mm-hmm.
10
A
-- that's something that South Florida judges, they
11
tend not to -- you know, dismissing a number of counts, and
12
then doing a rule 11 is not something that judges tend to do.
13
0
All right. Two -- two pieces to that. One is --
14
A
Okay.
15
Q
-- the issue of dismissing substantive --
16
A
Right.
17
Q
-- counts -- substantive counts. Is that -- was
18
that a particular concern in this case because of the nature
19
of the conduct represented in the --
20
A
So --
21
2
-- substantive counts?
22
A
-- so, so, your question -- you asked a general
23
question, and then now you're moving to a --
24
0
Right.
25
A
-- specific. As a general matter, not just in this
EFTA00009315

=== Page 88 ===
Page 88
1
case, but in other cases, it is -- it was rare that the
2
office after an -- in cases like this, after a full charge
3
was done, that that substantive counts were dismissed. So,
4
for example, in the public corruption cases that I referenced
5
earlier out of Palm Beach, those were all negotiated pre-
6
indictment, and agreed to, and then by the time the -- the
7
case was indicted, it was all -- it was all sort of set on
8
auto-pilot.
9
Q
So, typically, in my experience, the -- a
10
disposition like that is -- results in a criminal
11
information, not an indictment.
12
A
Correct, and --
13
0
Are you saying that you would go ahead and indict
14
then?
15
A
No, no, no, what I'm saying is that they were -- it
16
was all negotiated in advance, and then there was an
17
information --
18
Q
Oh, okay.
19
A
-- and the information would go forward, not an
20
indictment.
21
Q
All right.
22
A
And so, that is how a number of high profile cases
23
typically proceeded, as opposed to indict and dismiss.
24
&
And that is the experience of the Southern District
25
of Florida in general?
EFTA00009316

=== Page 89 ===
Page 89
1
A
It -- it was in particularly the Palm Beach office
2
with other high profile cases that were there at the time.
3
Q
Do you recall any case in which a judge in an
4
indicted case refused to dismiss counts when the
5
government --
6
A
Yeah.
7
Q
-- in an indictment under those circumstances?
8
A
I don't recall specific cases, but I can -- I can
9
say that typically in the higher profile cases you'd
10
negotiated with opposing counsel, presenting information.
11
The information would have agreed to an agreed to guideline,
12
and it would proceed in that way.
13
Q
Understood, but in this case, I'm focusing on the
14
assertion by
that the court could give us a hard
15
time, and that's a little different from, you know,
16
exercising discretion to negotiate and proceed by
17
information. So, is there any judge that -- that was
18
particularly concerning with regard to an unwillingness to --
19
A
I --
20
Q
-- dismiss?
21
A
I don't -- so, first, this is 12 years ago, and I
22
don't recall any specific judge, but I can -- I can sort of
23
that say that was not the practice of the office. The
24
practice of the office was to proceed by information rather
25
than indictment with dismissal, because there is more --
EFTA00009317

=== Page 90 ===
Page 90
1
there is -- there -- you can -- you can -- you can lay out
2
more what you've negotiated. I think later there's a letter
3
from
that sort of presents the same perspective.
4
Q
All right. In --
5
MS.
:
One moment?
6
MS.
: Go ahead.
7
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
8
BY MS.
:
9
Q
You said in cases of this nature, the resolution
10
happens before indicting. What is the -- this cases of this
11
nature?
12
A
Higher profile. Higher profile cases.
13
Q
So, not necessarily sex offense cases?
14
A
Not necessarily sex offense, no, no, no, higher --
15
higher profile cases where --
16
Q
And this made -- this was a higher profile case
17
because --
18
A
This was a -- just, a -- so, I would say it's a
19
combination of all of the above, and to my mind, one of
20
the -- one of the parts of this case is the legal theories
21
were, if not novel, they were novel within the Southern
22
District of Florida. At least, some of the legal theories,
23
and I -- we'll probably get into that.
24
Q
Did his wealth make it a high profile case?
25
A
Well, it was clearly in the paper. And so, that
EFTA00009318

=== Page 91 ===
Page 91
1 made it a high profile case. I don't think it -- I don't
2
think it was his wealth. I think it was all of the above.
3
This was a matter that the state attorney had been ready to
4
charge that the federal government is now jumping into and
5
saying, by its presence, that the state did not do enough.
6
That in and of itself makes it a very high profile
7
case. I can't remember any other instance, certainly during
8
my time, when we jumped in and said, you know, the state
9
dropped charges, and so we are going to do more.
10
BY MS.
:
11
0
As opposed to, or as distinguished from what you'd
12
described a few moments ago, a situation in which the federal
13
authorities and the state authorities kind of worked together
14
to sort out what would be charged, where, and do it
15
cooperatively?
16
A
And that was more cooperative, and I --
17
Q
Right.
18
A
-- I would -- you know, I do recollect that -- and
19
I think the record bears this out, that this was not a
20
particularly cooperative relationship between us and the
21
state attorney.
22
Q
Mm-hmm. Yes, we will get to that. Were you --
23
A
If I could -- if I could return, I think your
24
question -- the way you posed your question, you said a
25
recommendation from
, and let me -- let me push back a
EFTA00009319

=== Page 92 ===
Page 92
1
little bit on that.
2
Saying what are your thoughts? Have you read it,
3
what are your thoughts? And he says, yes, we can talk next
4
week, my current thoughts are -- is very different than,
5
we've sat down, we've discussed this, this is my now informed
6 position.
7
0
Understood, and I -- I should have been clearer. I
8
was referring to his recommendation that if you were going to
9
proceed, you should start with a --
10
A
Right.
11
Q
-- complaint.
12
A
Right.
13
0
Just to be clear.
14
A
And I'm just saying --
15
Q
Okay.
16
A
-- initial thoughts are -- yeah.
17
Q
All right. So, were you aware that
18
bootlegged a copy of the pros memo to
at
19
CEOS?
20
A
I was not.
21
Q
He did at that time.
22
A
Okay.
23
Q
And did you -- did you know
?
24
A
A little bit. I certainly knew of him.
25
0
Had you encountered him when -- he was the chief of
EFTA00009320

=== Page 93 ===
Page 93
1
the child exploitation and obscenities section --
2
A
Right.
3
Q
-- in the criminal division here, correct? Had you
4
encountered him while you were in this building also?
5
A
Most likely. I knew of him enough that the
6
correspondence shows -- and I recall asking to involve him
7
pretty early on.
8
Q
So, it does read as if you were acquainted with
9
him.
10
A
Yeah.
11
2
All right. And did you have any -- did his
12
opinion, his views as chief of CEOS and as
,
13
who had been an AUSA --
14
A
Right.
15
Q
-- in --
16
A
In Miami.
17
Q
-- Miami, did his views have influence on your
18
thinking about this case?
19
A
I don't think at this time I was aware that
20
had been consulted.
21
&
All right, and in July, just so you know, and I --
22
and this is not something you saw -- he provided a fairly
23
strong statement to -- by e-mail to
/
/ and
24
in which he advises that he reviewed the pros memo
25 closely.
EFTA00009321

=== Page 94 ===
Page 94
1
It's terrific. He says
did a terrific job,
2
and he says, "we agree with her legal analysis. Her charging
3
decisions are legally sound," and then
goes
4
through the different statutes, and concludes that they are
5
all properly charged, and that although there are some
6
issues, legally, that in his view we should, "We should
7
prevail." "Our position should prevail."
8
And that he also reviewed the arguments contained
9
in the letters from defense counsel, and he found none of
10
their arguments persuasive. So, at least as of July 18,
11 your --
12
A
Right.
13
Q
-- three levels of supervisors down were on notice
14
that CEOS was on board and wanted to --
15
A
Right.
16
Q
-- see the case move forward, but is it -- am I
17
correct in understanding that at that time, you were unaware
18
of that?
19
A
I do not recall being aware of that.
20
Q
All right. Okay. If you had been aware of it, if
21
they had sent this --
22
A
Yeah.
23
Q
-- pretty -- I don't want to overstate it, but it
24
is a pretty strong endorsement of the proposed prosecution,
25
would you have been influenced by that?
EFTA00009322

=== Page 95 ===
Page 95
1
A
Sure, I would have. I mean, I -- I respected
2
and clearly wanted him to be part of the team, and later
3 invited him down, and so, yes.
4
Q
Okay. All right. Do you know why they wouldn't
5
have shared -- your people wouldn't have shared this with
6 you?
7
A
I can't -- I don't know.
8
Q
All right. So, when -- as far -- based on the
9
briefings that you got at -- in this time period when there
10 was an effort to try to figure out --
11
A Right.
12
&
-- what you were going to do, were there any issues
13
of concern of fact or evidence or the charges that were left
14
unaddressed? In other words, if there were issues about
15
victim credibility, were steps being taken to address those?
16
A
Unaddressed is a -- again, it -- it's a very
17
binary, and it's not about addressed versus unaddressed. And
18
so, let me -- let me sort of come at it, if I can try to
19 get -- there were concerns around some legal issues. There
20
were concerns about how the victims would do when put on the
21 stand.
22
Q
Right.
23
A
As a general matter, we thought there was enough if
24
we had to go forward, we could, as an ethical matter, go
25 forward. That doesn't mean that there was not value in a
EFTA00009323

=== Page 96 ===
Page 96
1
pre-indictment resolution.
2
And so, here, you have
, based on this Exhibit
3
7, saying, we need to get on the same page as to what to
4
charge, pre-indictment resolution, cap him with conspiracy
5
count to make up the attractive.
6
So, a five year cap, something less than five
7
years, you have
in her affidavit that was submitted to
8
the court saying she favored a pre-indictment resolution.
9
And so, it's not a, have you addressed everything, yes or no,
10
as opposed to putting all of this, how do we --
11
2
All right.
12
A
-- how do we move forward?
13
0
Right, but there is a binary point here, and that
14
is, you either indict or you don't indict. You either
15
present an indictment to the grand jury, or you don't, right?
16
That's a decision. Right?
17
A
So, I would -- I would actually push back in that
18
in many cases, it's not quite that binary. In many cases,
19 you sit down with opposing counsel and say, look, we can go
20
to a grand jury, and we can present this indictment and
21
indict, or we can resolve this now. If we resolve this now,
22
this is the path that can go forward. Alternatively, we can
23
go here. And so, it's not an A versus B.
24
0
I understand that nuance, but the decision to
25
indict does -- I mean, you either indict or you don't. If
EFTA00009324

=== Page 97 ===
Page 97
1
you don't indict, it's for any number of reasons. If under
2
these circumstances, the choices that are available are you
3
have a case that's been brought in -- taken in from --
4
A
Right.
5
Q
-- the state. You can -- you can decline it. Send
6
it back to the state, make it go away, whatever.
7
A
Right.
8
0
We're not interested. You can indict. You can
9
indict and go to trial. These are the subcategories. Or you
10
can indict and have the defendant plead to the indictment, or
11
you can indict and work a post-indictment plea deal, which
12
raises the issues you talked about, or you can negotiate
13
an -- or you can charge -- proceed by complaint, and do as
14
was suggesting --
15
A
Right.
16
0
-- work a pre-indictment but post charge
17
disposition, or you can work a pre-charge disposition, right?
18
I mean, that's really --
19
A
So, so --
20
0
That's the parade of possibles.
21
A
Sure, but that's more than indictment or don't
22
indict.
That's six or seven options.
23
Q
I understand that. That's how it will play out,
24
but the decision as to whether to indict is binary. You're
25
either indicting or you're not indicting. The -- the act of
EFTA00009325

=== Page 98 ===
Page 98
1
indicting is a -- is something that either happens or doesn't
2
happen. That's all I'm saying.
3
A
Sure.
4
Q
Okay? So, what I'm getting at is, with respect to
5
the indictment -- so, as you're looking at this case,
6
you're -- it sounds as if you're doing sort of one analytical
7
track, which is, what do we do with this case? The other
8
piece of that, and a track that could have been followed
9
exclusively is, what do we need to do to get an indictment
10
that is legally sound and evidentiary - evidentiarily solid?
11
I'd like to focus on that track --
12
A Okay.
13
Q
-- because they're not unrelated.
14
A
Sure.
15
Q
If you never get down the, do we have a viable
16
indictment road, then you're not going to be able to do
17
anything in the other --
18
A
Sure.
19
Q
-- road. So, at this point, you had identified,
20
and you collectively - -- you and your people had identified
21
some witness -- victim witness issues, and some legal issues.
22
My question is, were steps being taken to -- I used -- I used
23
the term address --
24
A
Right.
25
Q
-- let me -- let me clarify, with respect to the
EFTA00009326

=== Page 99 ===
Page 99
1
witnesses, was the FBI and the line attorney with the
2
assistance perhaps of the grand jury, taking steps to
3
corroborate --
4
A
Right.
5
Q
-- shore up victim witness testimony, find new
6
victims, find additional evidence, and so on?
7
A
So -- so, taking that in part is helpful. So, with
8
respect to the witness issues, I recall, and
goes into
9
much more detail in her affidavit, but I recall concerns that
10
were communicated to me about, in essence, to sort of
11
summarize my impression or recollection, these girls are
12
young.
13
They're impressionable. They are scared. Will
14
they stand up in court? There are any number of -- there's
15
any number of things that could be used against them. Some
16
of them are -- and this is uncomfortable, but some of them
17
thought he actually cared for them, and that's not atypical
18
in these cases where they -- they sort of develop thoughts
19
that are wrong, but -- but they are what they are, and were
20
actually saying he did nothing wrong, and because many of
21
them knew one another, how would that all play out?
22
Q
Right.
23
A
And so, it would be my assumption, particularly
24
given, you know, how much work
was doing on this
25
case -- Ms.
was doing on this case -- that she, in
EFTA00009327

=== Page 100 ===
Page 100
1
combination with the FBI, would be pursuing those matters,
2
and looking to develop the evidence and corroborate, and
3
throughout this process, it would have been my assumption and
4
hope that she was continuing to develop the facts, because
5
that can only help.
6
Q
And so as U.S. Attorney, would it indeed have been
7
your expectation?
8
A
Yes.
9
Q
And the expectation that her -- that all those
10
interim supervisors would have been supporting her and
11
encouraging her and guiding her?
12
A
It would have been, and that -- that's what happens
13
in typical cases.
14
Q
Right.
15
A
Just because we're having a legal discussion
16
doesn't mean you stop pursuing leads.
17
Q
All right. Let me stick with the evidence piece of
18
that.
19
A
Yeah.
20
0
I'm going to keep these --
21
A
Helpful.
22
Q
-- strains going. You got a very detailed
23
accounting in -- reflected in Exhibit 8 from
of the
24
different Jane Does, and there were a lot of them, and there
25
were -- there were many counts in the indictment, and many
EFTA00009328


c1: EFTA00009440
c2: DataSet 7
c3: VOL00007
c4: DataSet 7/VOL00007/IMAGES/0001/EFTA00009440.pdf
c6: pdf
c7: images
c0:
=== Page 1 ===
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
IN RE: OPERATION LEAP YEAR
copy
Federal Grand Jury, 07-103
West Palm Beach, Florida
May 8, 2007
APPEARANCES:
, ESQUIRE
Assistant United States Attorney
, Foreperson
TESTIMONY
OF
Copy I of 13
EFTA00009440

=== Page 2 ===
Page 2
1
The sworn testimony of
was taken
2
before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm Beach
3
Division, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach County, State
4
of Florida, on the 8th day of May, 2007.
5
Philip W. May, Court Reporter, was authorized to
6
and did report the sworn testimony.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
EFTA00009441

=== Page 3 ===
Page 3
1
(The witness entered the grand jury room.)
2
3
having been duly sworn by the grand jury foreperson,
4
was examined and testified on his oath as follows:
5
EXAMINATION
6
BY MS.
:
7
&
Special Agent
could you state and
8
spell your name for the record.
9
A
10
Q
By whom are you employed?
11
A
I'm employed by the FBI.
12
Q
What is your position with the FBI?
13
A
I'm a special agent, and have been so for four
14
years.
15
Q
Are you one of the agents assigned to the
16
investigation known as Operation Leap Year?
17
A
Yes, I am.
18
Q
Were subpoenas caused to be issued on behalf of
19
this grand jury in connection with that investigation?
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
And have documents been received in response to
22
those?
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
What additional subpoenas have been issued, and
25
what have you received in response?
Copy ( of 13
EFTA00009442

=== Page 4 ===
Page 4
1
A
Additional subpoenas that have been issued
2
include OLY-28 to Colonial Bank, along with OLY-29, which
3
was issued to Palm Beach National Bank & Trust Company.
4
That was served on March 5, 2007. It should be known that
5
Palm Beach National Bank & Trust Company is now operated
6
by Colonial Bank, which we learned in the issuance
7
process. We did receive documents back from Colonial
8
Bank, which covered both subpoenas, on April 25, 2007.
9
&
And those sought information relating to bank
10
accounts belonging to Mr. Epstein?
11
A
That is correct.
12
Q
What else?
13
A
Also served OLY-30 to Western Union Financial
14
Services seeking documents and records related to Jeffrey
15
Epstein. It was served on February 26, 2007, and we
16
received items back from Western Union on two separate
17
dates, and two packages, the first on April 9, 2007, and
18
the second on April 11, 2007.
19
Q
And those sought records of wire transfers from
20
Mr. Epstein to girls whom have been identified for this
21
investigation?
22
A
Yes.
23
Q
What else?
24
A
We also served OLY-31 to Western Union Financial
25
Services. It was served on February 26, 2007, and they
EFTA00009443

=== Page 5 ===
Page 5
1
returned information which we received on May 3, 2007.
2
Q
The same type of information?
3
A
Yes, the same type of information, seeking wire
4
transfer information from Jeffrey Epstein to victims.
5
We also served OLY-32 to J.P. Morgan Chase Bank.
6
After serving that one on February 26, 2007, they informed
7
us by letter that they are known as Chase, not J.P. Morgan
8
Chase. So we had to reissue another subpoena, which was
9
taken care of on March 22, '07.
10
We also issued OLY-40 on Chase Bank as well on
11
April 4, 2007. We received records on April 13, 2007 and
12
April 19, 2007 to cover all three subpoenas that were
13
served.
14
Q
And those sought information related to bank
15
accounts and credit cards related to the defendants?
16
A
Yes. Additionally, we served OLY-33 on Dr.
17
Thomas Rofranno (phonetic), who's a chiropractic doctor.
18
We were seeking records related to Jeffrey Epstein as a
19
patient. The subpoena was served on March 6, 2007, and
20
Thomas Rofranno provided materials on March 16, 2007.
21
Also we have OLY-36, which was served on the
22
Palm Beach County Health Department. It was served on
23
March 5, 2007, seeking birth certificates of our victims
24
that we were researching. We received the records from
25
the Palm Beach County Health Department on April 16, 2007.
Copy lof 13
EFTA00009444

=== Page 6 ===
Page 6
1
We also served two subpoenas on the Adult Video
2
Warehouse. The first one was OLY-41, which was served --
3
both of these were served on April 24, 2007, and they were
4
seeking any transactions that had occurred on behalf of
5
Mr. Epstein or those individuals that were working for him
6
or with him. We received items back on the OLY-41
7
subpoena on April 30, 2007.
8
The second subpoena served on Adult Video
9
Warehouse was OLY-34. Again, it was served on April 24,
10
2007, and the Adult Video Warehouse complied and provided
11
us materials on April 30, 2007.
12
That concludes all of the items that we have
13
received to date for the outstanding subpoenas that were
14
issued.
15
&
Are the documents that you refer to in that box
16
that's on the desk?
17
A
Yes, they are.
18
:
Does anyone want to review those
19
documents? At this time, no one is requesting that
20
they want to review the documents today.
21
Would you please swear in the witness to
22
maintain those documents.
23
(Witness sworn in as custodian of the
24
records.)
25
(Witness excused.)
EFTA00009445

=== Page 7 ===
Page 7
1
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
I CERTIFY pages 1 to 6 is a true transcript of
4
my shorthand notes of the testimony of
5
, before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm
6
Beach, Florida, on the 8th day of May, 2007.
7
Dated at West Palm Beach, Florida this 28th day
8
of May, 2007.
9
10
11
Philip W. May
12
13
Philip W. May, Court Reporter
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Copy (of B
EFTA00009446

=== Page 8 ===


c1: EFTA00009658
c2: DataSet 7
c3: VOL00007
c4: DataSet 7/VOL00007/IMAGES/0001/EFTA00009658.pdf
c6: pdf
c7: images
c0:
=== Page 1 ===
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 38 Filed 07/25/19 Page 1 of 5
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 37-1 Filed 07/25/19 Page 1 of 9
USDC SDNY
DOCUMENT
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
ELECTRONICALLY FILED
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
DOC #:
-
X
:
DATE FILED: July 25,2019
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
:
:
PROTECTIVE ORDER
- V. -
:
:
19 Cr. 490 (RMB)
JEFFREY EPSTEIN,
:
:
Defendant.
:
:
-
X
RICHARD M. BERMAN, United States District Judge:
WHEREAS the Government intends to produce to JEFFREY
EPSTEIN, the defendant, certain documents and materials that
(i) affect the privacy and confidentiality of individuals,
(ii) would impede, if prematurely disclosed, the Government's
ongoing investigation of uncharged individuals; (iii) would risk
prejudicial pretrial publicity if publicly disseminated, and
(iv) is not authorized to be disclosed to the public or
disclosed beyond that which is necessary for the defense of this
action, and other materials pursuant to Federal Rule of Criminal
Procedure 16 ("Rule 16") and pursuant to any other disclosure
obligations (collectively, the "Discovery"), which contain
sensitive, confidential, or personal identifying information;
WHEREAS, the Government seeks to protect sensitive,
confidential, or personal identifying information contained in
the materials it produces consistent with Rule 16 or other
disclosure obligations;
1
EFTA00009658

=== Page 2 ===
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 38 Filed 07/25/19 Page 2 of 5
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 37-1 Filed 07/25/19 Page 3 of 9
e) May be shown to, but not disseminated to or
provided copies of to, prospective witnesses and their counsel
(collectively, "Potential Witnesses"), to the extent deemed
necessary by defense counsel, for trial preparation.
2. To the extent the Discovery is disclosed to
Defense Staff, Defense Experts/Advisors, Other Authorized
Persons, or Potential Witnesses, Defense Counsel shall instruct
such individual (s) of the terms of this Order and that such
individual (s) are bound by this Order. To the extent that
Discovery is disseminated to Defense Staff, Defense
Experts/Advisors, or Other Authorized Persons, Defense Counsel
shall encrypt and/or password protect the Discovery. The
provisions of this paragraph do not apply to communications
exclusively between and among Defense Counsel.
3. The Government, the Defendant, Defense Counsel,
Defense Staff, Defense Experts/Advisors, Potential Witnesses,
and Other Authorized Persons are prohibited from posting or
causing to be posted any of the Discovery or information
contained in the Discovery on the Internet, including any social
media website.
4. The Government (other than in the discharge of
their professional obligations in this matter), Defense Counsel,
Defense Staff, Defense Experts/Advisors, Potential Witnesses,
and Other Authorized Persons are precluded from publicly
3
EFTA00009659

=== Page 3 ===
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 38 Filed 07/25/19 Page 3 of 5
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 37-1 Filed 07/25/19 Page 5 of 9
other identifying designation, are deemed "Confidential
Information."
7.
Confidential Information may contain personal
identification information of specific individuals who are not
parties to this action, and other confidential information; as
well as information that identifies, or could lead to the
identification of, witnesses in this matter. The Government's
designation of material as Confidential Information will be
controlling absent contrary order of the Court.
8.
Confidential Information disclosed to the
defendant, or Defense Counsel, respectively, during the course
of proceedings in this action:
a) Shall be used by the defendant or his
counsel only for purposes of the defense of this action;
b) Shall be maintained in a safe and secure
manner solely by Defense Counsel;
c) Shall be reviewed by the Defendant solely in
the presence of Defense Counsel;
d) Shall not be possessed outside the presence
of Defense Counsel, or maintained, by the Defendant;
e) May be disclosed only by Defense Counsel and
only to Designated Persons;
f) May be shown to, but not disseminated to or
provided copies of to, Potential Witnesses, to the extent deemed
5
EFTA00009660

=== Page 4 ===
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 38 Filed 07/25/19 Page 4 of 5
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 37-1 Filed 07/25/19 Page 7 of 9
c) Shall not be possessed outside the presence
of Defense Counsel, or maintained, by the Defendant;
d) Shall be made available for inspection by
Defense Counsel and the Defendant, under the protection of law
enforcement officers or employees; and
e) Shall not be copied or otherwise duplicated
by Defense Counsel or the Defendant during such inspections.
11. The Defendant and Defense Counsel shall provide a
copy of this Order to Designated Persons to whom they disclose
Confidential Information or Highly Confidential Information.
Prior to disclosure of such information to Designated Persons,
any such Designated Person shall agree to be subject to the
terms of this Order by signing a copy hereof and stating that
they "Agree to be bound by the terms herein," and providing such
copy to the defendant's counsel. However, the defendant and his
or her respective counsel need not obtain signatures from any
member of the defense team (i.e., attorneys, experts,
consultants, paralegals, investigators, support personnel, and
secretarial staff involved in the representation of the
defendants in this case), all of whom are nonetheless bound by
this Protective Order.
12. Except for Discovery that has been made part of
the record of this case, Defense Counsel shall return to the
Government or securely destroy or delete all Discovery,
7
EFTA00009661

=== Page 5 ===
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 38 Filed 07/25/19 Page 5 of 5
Case 1:19-cr-00490-RMB Document 37-1 Filed 07/25/19 Page 9 of 9
13. The foregoing provisions shall remain in effect
unless and until either (a) the Government and Defense Counsel
mutually agree otherwise, or (b) this Order is modified by
further order of the Court.
SO ORDERED:
Dated:
New York, New York
July 25, 2019
Ruchard /AR
HONORABLE RICHARD M. BERMAN
United States District Judge
AGREED AND CONSENTED TO:
Dated: July 24, 2019
New York, New York
GEOFFREY S. BERMAN
United States Attorney
Southern District of New York
By:
/s/
Assistant United States Attorneys
Dated: July 25, 2019
New York, New York
JEFFREY EPSTEIN
By: Mariel Martin Weinberg, Esq.
Reid Weingarten, Esq.
Counsel for Jeffrey Epstein
9
EFTA00009662

=== Page 6 ===


c1: EFTA00009664
c2: DataSet 7
c3: VOL00007
c4: DataSet 7/VOL00007/IMAGES/0001/EFTA00009664.pdf
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c7: images
c0:
=== Page 1 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 1 of 12
USDC SDNY
DOCUMENT
ELECTRONICALLY FILED
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
DOC #:
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
DATE FILED:7/30/2020
X
:
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
:
:
PROTECTIVE ORDER
- V. -
:
:
20 Cr. 330 (AJN)
GHISLAINE MAXWELL,
:
:
Defendant.
:
:
X
ALISON J. NATHAN, United States District Judge:
WHEREAS the Government intends to produce to GHISLAINE
MAXWELL, the defendant, certain documents and materials that
(i) affect the privacy and confidentiality of individuals,
(ii) would impede, if prematurely disclosed, the Government's
ongoing investigation; (iii) would risk prejudicial pretrial
publicity if publicly disseminated, and (iv) is not authorized
to be disclosed to the public or disclosed beyond that which is
necessary for the defense of this action, and other materials
pursuant to Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 16 ("Rule 16")
and pursuant to any other disclosure obligations (collectively,
the "Discovery"), which contain sensitive, confidential, or
personal identifying information;
WHEREAS, the Government seeks to protect sensitive,
confidential, or personal identifying information contained in
the materials it produces consistent with Rule 16 or other
disclosure obligations;
1
EFTA00009664

=== Page 2 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 2 of 12
WHEREAS the Government has applied for the entry of
this Order;
IT HEREBY IS ORDERED:
1.
The Discovery disclosed to the defendant
("Defendant") and/or to the defendant's criminal defense
attorneys ("Defense Counsel") during the course of proceedings
in this action:
a) Shall be used by the Defendant or her
Defense Counsel solely for purposes of the defense of this
criminal action, and not for any civil proceeding or any purpose
other than the defense of this action;
b) Shall not be copied or otherwise recorded or
transmitted by the Defendant, except to Defense Counsel, or
except as necessary for the Defendant to take notes, which are
not to be further transmitted to anyone other than Defense
Counsel;
c) Shall not be disclosed or distributed in any
form by the Defendant or her counsel except as set forth in
paragraph 1 (d) below;
d) May be disclosed only by Defense Counsel and
only to the following persons ("Designated Persons"):
i. investigative, secretarial, clerical,
or paralegal personnel employed full-time, part-time, or as
2
EFTA00009665

=== Page 3 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 3 of 12
independent contractors by the defendant's counsel ("Defense
Staff");
ii. any expert or potential expert, legal
advisor, consultant, or any other individual retained or
employed by the Defendant and Defense Counsel for the purpose of
assisting in the defense of this case ("Defense
Experts/Advisors");
iii. such other persons as hereafter may be
authorized by Order of the Court ("Other Authorized Persons");
e) May be provided to prospective witnesses and
their counsel (collectively, "Potential Defense Witnesses"), to
the extent deemed necessary by defense counsel, for trial
preparation. To the extent Discovery materials are disclosed to
Potential Defense Witnesses, they agree that any such materials
will not be further copied, distributed, or otherwise
transmitted to individuals other than the recipient Potential
Defense Witnesses.
2. The Defendant and Defense Counsel shall provide a
copy of this Order to any Designated Persons to whom they
disclose Discovery materials. Prior to disclosure of Discovery
materials to Designated Persons, any such Designated Person
shall agree to be subject to the terms of this Order by signing
a copy hereof and stating that they "Agree to be bound by the
terms herein," and providing such copy to Defense Counsel. All
3
EFTA00009666

=== Page 4 ===
such acknowledgments shall be retained by Defense Counsel and
shall be subject to in camera review by the Court if good cause
for review is demonstrated. The Defendant and her counsel need
not obtain signatures from any member of the defense team (i.e.,
attorneys, experts, consultants, paralegals, investigators,
support personnel, and secretarial staff involved in the
representation of the defendants in this case), all of whom are
nonetheless bound by this Protective Order.
3. To the extent that Discovery is disseminated to
Defense Experts/Advisors, Other Authorized Persons, or Potential
Defense Witnesses, via means other than electronic mail, Defense
Counsel shall encrypt and/or password protect the Discovery.
4. The Government, the Defendant, Defense Counsel,
Defense Staff, Defense Experts/Advisors, Potential Defense
Witnesses and their counsel, and Other Authorized Persons are
prohibited from posting or causing to be posted any of the
Discovery or information contained in the Discovery on the
Internet, including any social media website or other publicly
available medium.
5. The Government (other than in the discharge of
their professional obligations in this matter), the Defendant,
Defense Counsel, Defense Staff, Defense Experts/Advisors,
Potential Defense Witnesses and their counsel, and Other
Authorized Persons are strictly prohibited from publicly
4
EFTA00009667

=== Page 5 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 5 of 12
disclosing or disseminating the identity of any victims or
witnesses referenced in the Discovery. This Order does not
prohibit Defense Counsel or Defense Staff from referencing the
identities of individuals they believe may be relevant to the
defense to Potential Defense Witnesses and their counsel during
the course of the investigation and preparation of the defense
case at trial. Any Potential Defense Witnesses and their
counsel who are provided identifying information by Defense
Counsel or Defense Staff are prohibited from further disclosing
or disseminating such identifying information. This Order does
not prohibit Defense Counsel from publicly referencing
individuals who have spoken by name on the public record in this
case.
6.
The Defendant, Defense Counsel, Defense Staff,
Defense Experts/Advisors, Potential Defense Witnesses, and Other
Authorized Persons are prohibited from filing publicly as an
attachment to a filing or excerpted within a filing the identity
of any victims or witnesses referenced in the Discovery, who
have not spoken by name on the public record in this case,
unless authorized by the Government in writing or by Order of
the Court. Any such filings must be filed under seal, unless
authorized by the Government in writing or by Order of the
Court.
5
EFTA00009668

=== Page 6 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 6 of 12
7.
Copies of Discovery or other materials produced
by the Government in this action bearing "confidential" stamps,
or designated as "confidential" as described below, and/or
electronic Discovery materials designated as "confidential" by
the Government, including such materials marked as
"confidential" either on the documents or materials themselves,
or designated as "confidential" in a folder or document title,
are deemed "Confidential Information." The Government shall
clearly mark all pages or electronic materials containing
Confidential Information, or folder or document titles as
necessary, with "confidential" designations.
8.
Confidential Information may contain personal
identification information of victims, witnesses, or other
specific individuals who are not parties to this action, and
other confidential information; as well as information that
identifies, or could lead to the identification of, witnesses in
this matter. The identity of an alleged victim or witness who
has identified herself or himself publicly as such on the record
in this case shall not be treated as Confidential Information.
9.
Defense Counsel may, at any time, notify the
Government that Defense Counsel does not concur in the
designation of documents or other materials as Confidential
Information. If the Government does not agree to de-designate
such documents or materials, Defense Counsel may thereafter move
6
EFTA00009669

=== Page 7 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 7 of 12
the Court for an Order de-designating such documents or
materials. The Government's designation of such documents and
materials as Confidential Information will be controlling absent
contrary order of the Court.
10. Confidential Information disclosed to the
defendant, or Defense Counsel, respectively, during the course
of proceedings in this action:
a) Shall be used by the Defendant or her
Defense Counsel solely for purposes of the defense of this
criminal action, and not for any civil proceeding or any purpose
other than the defense of this action;
b) Shall be maintained in a safe and secure
manner;
c)
Shall be reviewed and possessed by the
Defendant in hard copy solely in the presence of Defense
Counsel;
d) Shall be possessed in electronic format only
by Defense Counsel and by appropriate officials of the Bureau of
Prisons ("BOP"), who shall provide the defendant with electronic
access to the Discovery, including Confidential Information,
consistent with the rules and regulations of the BOP, for the
Defendant's review;
7
EFTA00009670

=== Page 8 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 8 of 12
e)
Shall be reviewed by the Defendant solely in
the presence of Defense Counsel or when provided access to
Discovery materials in electronic format by BOP officials;
f) May be disclosed only by Defense Counsel and
only to Designated Persons;
g) May be shown to, either in person, by
videoconference, or via a read-only document review platform,
but not disseminated to or provided copies of to, Potential
Defense Witnesses, to the extent deemed necessary by Defense
Counsel, for trial preparation, and after such individual (s)
have read and signed this Order acknowledging that such
individual (s) are bound by this Order.
11. Copies of Discovery or other materials produced
by the Government in this action bearing "highly confidential"
stamps or otherwise specifically designated as "highly
confidential," and/or electronic Discovery materials designated
as "highly confidential" by the Government, including such
materials marked as "highly confidential" either on the
documents or materials themselves, or designated as "highly
confidential" in an index, folder title, or document title, are
deemed "Highly Confidential Information." To the extent any
Highly Confidential Information is physically produced to the
Defendant and Defense Counsel, rather than being made available
to the Defendant and Defense Counsel for on-site review, the
8
EFTA00009671

=== Page 9 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 9 of 12
Government shall clearly mark all such pages or electronic
materials containing Highly Confidential Information with
"highly confidential" stamps on the documents or materials
themselves.
12. Highly Confidential Information contains nude,
partially-nude, or otherwise sexualized images, videos, or other
depictions of individuals.
13. Defense Counsel may, at any time, notify the
Government that Defense Counsel does not concur in the
designation of documents or other materials as Highly
Confidential Information. If the Government does not agree to
de-designate such documents or materials, Defense Counsel may
thereafter move the Court for an Order de-designating such
documents or materials. The Government's designation of such
documents and materials as Highly Confidential Information will
be controlling absent contrary order of the Court.
14. Highly Confidential Information disclosed to
Defense Counsel during the course of proceedings in this action:
a) Shall be used by the Defendant or her
Defense Counsel solely for purposes of the defense of this
criminal action, and not for any civil proceeding or any purpose
other than the defense of this action;
9
EFTA00009672

=== Page 10 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 10 of 12
b)
Shall not be disseminated, transmitted, or
otherwise copied and provided to Defense Counsel or the
Defendant;
c)
Shall be reviewed by the Defendant solely in
the presence of Defense Counsel;
d)
Shall not be possessed outside the presence
of Defense Counsel, or maintained, by the Defendant;
e) Shall be made available for inspection by
Defense Counsel and the Defendant, under the protection of law
enforcement officers or employees; and
f)
Shall not be copied or otherwise duplicated
by Defense Counsel or the Defendant during such inspections.
15. The Defendant, Defense Counsel, Defense Staff,
Defense Experts/Advisors, Potential Defense Witnesses, and Other
Authorized Persons are prohibited from filing publicly as an
attachment to a filing or excerpted within a filing any
Confidential Information or Highly Confidential Information
referenced in the Discovery, unless authorized by the Government
in writing or by Order of the Court. Any such filings must be
filed under seal, unless authorized by the Government in writing
or by Order of the Court.
16. The provisions of this Order shall not be
construed as preventing disclosure of any information, with the
exception of victim or witness identifying information, that is
10
EFTA00009673

=== Page 11 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 11 of 12
publicly available or obtained by the Defendant or her Defense
Counsel from a source other than the Government.
17. Except for Discovery that has been made part of
the record of this case, Defense Counsel shall return to the
Government or securely destroy or delete all Discovery,
including but not limited to Confidential Information, within 30
days of the expiration of the period for direct appeal from any
verdict in the above-captioned case; the period of direct appeal
from any order dismissing any of the charges in the above-
captioned case; the expiration of the period for a petition
pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 2255; any period of time required by the
federal or state ethics rules applicable to any attorney of
record in this case; or the granting of any motion made on
behalf of the Government dismissing any charges in the above-
captioned case, whichever date is later.
18. The foregoing provisions shall remain in effect
unless and until either (a) the Government and Defense Counsel
mutually agree in writing otherwise, or (b) this Order is
modified by further order of the Court.
19. The Government and Defense Counsel agree to meet
and confer in advance of any hearings or trial to discuss and
agree to any modifications necessary for the presentation of
evidence at those proceedings. In the absence of agreement,
11
EFTA00009674

=== Page 12 ===
Case 1:20-cr-00330-AJN Document 36 Filed 07/30/20 Page 12 of 12
Defense Counsel may make an appropriate application to the Court
for any such modifications.
SO ORDERED:
Dated:
New York, New York
July 30, 2020
Alim D.Netto
HONORABLE ALISON J. NATHAN
United States District Judge
12
EFTA00009675


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=== Page 1 ===
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
IN RE: OPERATION LEAP YEAR
Federal Grand Jury, 07-103
West Palm Beach, Florida
February 27, 2007
APPEARANCES:
, ESQUIRE
Assistant United States Attorney
Foreperson
TESTIMONY
OF
ORIGINAL
Copy I of13
EFTA00009448

=== Page 2 ===
Page 2
1
The sworn testimony of
2
was taken before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm
3
Beach Division, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach County,
4
State of Florida, on the 27th day of February, 2007.
5
,
Court Reporter, was authorized to
6
and did report the sworn testimony.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
EFTA00009449

=== Page 3 ===
Page 3
1
(The witness entered the grand jury room.)
2
3
having been duly sworn by the grand jury foreperson,
4
was examined and testified on her oath as follows:
5
EXAMINATION
6
BY
7
Q
Good morning, special agent
Could
8
you restate and spell your name for the record.
9
A
It's
10
11
Q
Can you remind the grand jury who you are
12
employed by?
13
A
The FBI.
14
Q
I know that you testified here a few weeks ago.
15
Was there anything from that testimony that you wanted to
16
correct?
17
A
I did. I was asked by one of you Mr. Epstein's
18
age, and I confused him with another individual in another
19
one of my cases. His birthdate is January 20, 1953. We
20
are looking at the time period of 2004 and 2005. So
21
Mr. Epstein would have been about 51 or 52-years-old, and
22
I believe I told you he was 45. So at the time we're
23
looking during this investigation, he is 51 or 52.
24
Q
Agent
, how did this case first come
25
to the attention of the police?
Copy 10f
EFTA00009450

=== Page 4 ===
Page 4
1
A
In March of 2005,
, our youngest
2
identified victim -- her
called the Palm Beach
3
police department and reported that she believed that her
4
stepdaughter had been molested by a male that resided in
5
the town of Palm Beach.
6
&
So today we are going to talk about
?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
And we are using her initial to protect her
9
identity, correct?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
Can you tell the grand jury
date of
12
birth?
13
A
birthday is
14
&
And you mentioned that the call came in from
15
in March of 2005, correct?
16
A
Yes.
17
&
So how old was
at that time?
18
A
She was 14.
19
&
Where does
live?
20
A
lives in the
21
area here in Palm Beach County.
22
Q
At the time, in 2005, what school was she
23
attending?
24
A
25
Q
What year was she in school?
EFTA00009451

=== Page 5 ===
Page 5
1
A
She was a ninth-grader there.
2
Q
You mentioned that her
called the
3
Palm Beach police department. What did the police
4
department do in response to that call?
5
A
They wanted to interview
I believe it was
*
6
the next day they went out to where
was attending
7
school at that time, which I think was
. They
8
interviewed
at
and wanted to get her side
9
of what took place.
10
Q
Because we'll be referring to this throughout,
11
what was the name of the detective who conducted that
12
first interview?
13
A
Detective
14
Q
So in March of 2005, detective
talked with
15
- Was
ever interviewed at any other times?
16
A
Yes. She was interviewed -- they talked to her
17
again. She placed some controlled calls for them later
18
that month, we will talk about that later. As well as
19
she was interviewed about a year later in July of 2006.
20
Not interviewed, but she testified before the grand jury
21
for the State of Florida. So she was interviewed by
22
detective
in March of 2005, and then about a year or
23
three or four months later, in July of 2006, she testified
24
before a grand jury with the State of Florida.
25
Q
In preparation for your appearance today, did
Copy 10f13
EFTA00009452

=== Page 6 ===
Page 6
1
you have a chance to interview
?
2
A
Yes, I did.
3
Q
And when was that?
4
A
Last night.
5
Q
Back in March of 2005, you mentioned that
6
detective
met with
on or more than one
7
occasion?
8
A
Yes.
9
Q
If you could give us sort of an overview of what
10
reported during these interviews, and then if there
11
are specific discrepancies or differences, we will return
12
to those later.
13
A
All right. On February 5, 2005, it was a
14
Saturday, and
was at
house,
She
15
was there with her boyfriend,
.
And because these
16
are minors, we'll refer to them without using their last
17
names, so I'll use those initials.
18
They were at.
residence, and
is
19
boyfriend, which is also
cousin. So they
20
were all at
house, and
was on the phone with
21
an individual that
refers to as the assistant.
22
described the assistant as a tall blonde.
23
So throughout I'll refer to her as the blonde lady, if
24
that's okay.
was unable to recall her name. So
25
is on the phone with the assistant for Jeffrey
EFTA00009453

=== Page 7 ===
Page 7
1
Epstein.
2
and
overhear
on the phone
3
describing
.
describing
to the lady on
4
the phone. So when
gets off the phone,
and
5
both want to know why
was being described to
6
this lady on the phone.
becomes upset when
7
asks
if she would like to go to Palm Beach and give a
8
man a massage that she knows.
agrees, and this
9
upsets
,
and an argument ensues where
and
10
go into the bathroom and they argue outside the presence
11
of
.
12
Q
Let me stop you there. Was
supposed to be
13
paid for giving this massage?
14
A
Yes.
told
that she would be paid
15
$200 or $300, I believe.
16
Q
You mentioned that
is
, and
17
is also
, correct?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
What was
idea about why they were
20
arguing?
21
A
She has told us that she believed that
must
22
have known what
was doing for this man and the work
23
that
did for Mr. Epstein, and that is why
was
24
so upset.
25
Q
So
knew that this wasn't just a regular
Copy ( of 13
EFTA00009454

=== Page 8 ===
Page 8
1
massage that was going to take place?
2
A
Yes.
3
&
So
and
have this argument. What does
4
decide to do?
5
A
decides to go.
6
Q
Because she wanted to make the $200 or $300?
7
A
Yes.
8
&
So tell us then what happened after that
9
meeting?
10
A
The next day, February 6 -- they discussed that
11
evening about going the next day. We do have on
12
phone records two calls that were placed. One was placed
13
to
cell phone, and the other was placed to
14
Jeffrey Epstein's residence the night of February 5.
15
The next day
is contacted a couple of times
16
before
arrives. Each time prior to
being
17
contacted by
, a call is placed by
to
18
cell phone.
, I should tell you, is
19
Jeffrey's assistant.
20
So on Sunday a call was placed to
,
21
and then shortly after that a call was made to
- That
22
same series occurs again, but this time
places a
23
call to Mr. Epstein's residence, and then
is called
24
again.
25
Eventually,
comes to
residence with
EFTA00009455

=== Page 9 ===
Page 9
1
another girl in the car,
-
So the two of them
2
arrive at
residence, and they continue over to
3
Mr. Epstein's house.
4
Q
is driving with
and
a
Do you
5
know how they were sitting?
6
A
You know, I'm not sure how they were sitting,
7
but I know that it was a pickup truck that
drove,
8
and
was the driver. I'm not sure exactly the
9
placement of the other two girls, but they were in the
10
truck.
11
Q
And
was able to describe how they travelled
12
to the island of Palm Beach?
13
A
Yes. She gave directions -- you know, the best
14
that she could on how she was able to come to
15
Mr. Epstein's residence.
16
Q
Once they arrived at the residence, what
17
happened?
18
A
I should have mentioned that either the night
19
before or the day of, there were some things that
20
tells
. One, she tells
that she is to tell, if
21
asked, that she is 18-years-of-age, that she attends high
22
school, that she's in the 12th grade, and I believe it was
23
that she was to say that she went
24
to.
25
Talking to
last night,
told us that
Copy loff3
EFTA00009456

=== Page 10 ===
Page 10
1
once she arrived at the residence
tells her that she
2
may possibly be asked to take her clothes off. She also
3
tells her that she can stay in her bra, but she may be
4
asked to take her clothes off. And
told us last
5
night that that's when she knew for the first time that
6
she might have to possibly remove her clothes.
7
At this point they proceed to enter the
8
residence.
describes him as a security person. He
9
approached and asked what they were doing there, and
10
said they were there to see Mr. Epstein, or see Jeffrey.
11
He allowed them entry into the kitchen area by the pool,
12
and
describes that area. So now
,
and
13
are all sitting in the kitchen. A short time goes
14
by and Mr. Epstein, as well as the assistant, enter the
15
kitchen.
16
0
And I know that you mentioned that
did not
17
know the name of the lady who was there in the kitchen,
18
correct?
19
A
Right.
20
&
She just described her as a blonde, tall lady?
21
A
Yes.
22
Q
Was
also interviewed about what happened
23
that day?
24
A
She was interviewed by the Palm Beach police
25
department.
EFTA00009457

=== Page 11 ===
Page 11
1
Q
Did
identify the person who was on the
2
phone with her as
?
3
A
Yes, she did.
4
Q
So even though
doesn't know her name,
5
knew
name?
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
So you mentioned that the three girls are in the
8
kitchen, along with Jeffrey and the person
calls the
9
blonde lady?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
What happened then?
12
A
follows the blonde lady upstairs to
13
Mr. Epstein's bedroom. The blonde lady proceeds to take
14
out a massage table and set it up, prepare it. She also
15
takes out some lotions to be used during the massage.
16
told me last night that the blonde lady asked her to
17
remove her clothing, and then left the room and said that
18
Mr. Epstein would be in shortly.
19
Q
What happened after she left the room?
20
A
Shortly after that, Mr. Epstein does come into
21
the room and shakes
hand.
told us last night
22
that Mr. Epstein told her to remove her clothing. He
23
leaves the room and comes back in just a towel, and he
24
tells her again to -- she is at that point -- when he
25
walked in the first time she had on her bra and her pants.
Copy ( of 13
EFTA00009458

=== Page 12 ===
Page 12
1
When he comes back in, he tells her that she needs to take
2
her pants off. So she took her pants off. So now she's
3
in her bra and underwear.
4
Q
At some point did
tell any of the people
5
who interviewed her what was running through her mind?
6
A
She stated at one point that she was upstairs
7
with him, with the man, and that
was downstairs. I
8
guess she says, "What could
do? She's downstairs,
9
I'm upstairs." So she did what she was asked to do.
10
Q
So now you mention that Mr. Epstein is here
11
wearing just a towel, and
has removed both her shirt
12
and her pants, is that correct?
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
Tell us what happens then?
15
A
Mr. Epstein gets on the massage table lying on
16
his stomach and instructs
how to do the massage. He
17
tells her to put some lotion on her hand and instructs her
18
on how to actually perform the massage. At one point
19
during the massage he tells
that she would be more
20
comfortable to get on top of him, so
gets on top of
21
him and straddles Mr. Epstein's back.
22
The way
describes it is Mr. Epstein is
23
laying on the table, he has a towel covering his bottom,
24
and she is straddling him with her bottom touching the
25
towel and some skin touching his lower back. She was kind
EFTA00009459

=== Page 13 ===
Page 13
1
of sitting -- it sounds like sitting on his rear end, but
2
with part of her skin touching him -- the front of him,
3
but he had a towel across his bottom.
4
Q
What happens as she is providing the massage to
5
his back?
6
A
The massage goes on. She said the entire
7
massage lasted anywhere from 30 to 45 minutes. At one
8
point Mr. Epstein excuses himself for a few minutes, one
9
or two minutes briefly.
states that she can hear
10
Mr. Epstein
,
and states that she
11
believes he was, in her words,
12
.
She didn't say
she said
13
I am going to use that she believes he was
14
15
Then he returns. At this point he gets back on
16
the table lying on his back and asks her to start
17
massaging his chest. So she begins to massage his chest.
18
Q
Does he keep the towel on?
19
A
No, at this point the towel is removed. When he
20
comes back and he gets back on the table, the towel is
21
removed and she is massaging his chest.
22
Q
What does he do as she is massaging his chest?
23
A
He
-
So he
24
on the table. He asked
. at
25
some point during this time, if she would like to make an
Com lof 13
EFTA00009460

=== Page 14 ===
Page 14
1
extra $100. He tells her that it would not involve doing
2
a massage.
agrees. He asked her if he could
3
,
and she does agree.
describes it as
4
a
and she
5
said this goes on for about ten minutes.
6
At some point during that massage
7
8
describes him
9
Q
What did she say happened when Mr. Epstein
10
11
A
The
.
At some point he does
12
+
And these are her words. She
13
looks at him kind of funny, and he sarcastically -- which
14
is her word -- he sarcastically says, "What's the matter?"
15
And she at that point just kind of looks away, and he
16
continues on with
-
In the last
17
three to four minutes of that, he
18
19
At the conclusion of the sexual activity,
20
Mr. Epstein
was
21
asked if
She
22
but saw him
23
&
Was
able to provide a physical description
24
of Mr. Epstein?
25
A
Yes.
EFTA00009461

=== Page 15 ===
Page 15
1
Q
Including of
?
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
Was she also able to provide a description of
4
her surroundings in that massage area?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
Was that description accurate?
7
A
Yes. According to other testimony we have
8
gotten from other victims, yes.
9
&
And a search was performed on Mr. Epstein's
10
house?
11
A
Yes. The Palm Beach police department did
12
perform a search, and several of the items that were
13
described were found in the house.
14
Q
After Mr. Epstein
what
15
happened?
16
A
He told
that she was getting the extra
17
hundred dollars because he was allowed
18
-
The massage had been
19
concluded, the sexual activity had been concluded. He
20
gets up and leaves for a brief moment of time and comes
21
back with $300 and pays
the $300. I believe he told
22
that she could see herself out.
23
Q
Before we leave that room, when
was either
24
being directed to the room or was inside that room where
25
the massage took place, was there anything in particular
Com lot 13
EFTA00009462

=== Page 16 ===
Page 16
1
that she noted seeing?
2
A
She noted seeing several naked pictures of girls
3
in the room, a mural or pictures of naked girls either
4
exposing their breasts or completely naked.
5
Q
While the massage was going on, did Mr. Epstein
6
talk to
?
7
A
Yes, he did.
8
Q
And did he talk about sexual conquests with
9
girls?
10
A
Yes, he did.
11
Q
Once Mr. Epstein has provided
with the
12
$300, what did she do?
13
A
She went back downstairs and she,
and
14
leave the residence. In the car they ask
how
15
much money she has made, and she tells them $300.
16
wants to see the money. She shows the money to
, and
17
asks what did she do. At that point
tells her
18
that he
19
Q
When they left the house, where did they go?
20
A
When they left the house, they were on their way
21
to a mall to go shopping with the money that they had
22
received from Mr. Epstein.
had told
the night
23
before that she needed some shoes and wanted to go to the
24
mall, and she was going to Mr. Epstein's to pick up some
25
money. That was another reason that she had for going to
EFTA00009463

=== Page 17 ===
Page 17
1
Mr. Epstein's house that day, and that they were going to
2
go shopping after she got her money, and that
could
3
make some money.
4
Q
During that ride, did
realize that
5
received money from Mr. Epstein?
6
A
Yes. At some point
knows that
7
received $200, but is unsure that
ever gave a
8
massage. So at that particular time
did not know why
9
she had gotten the $200, because she didn't think that
10
had had time to give a massage.
11
Q
In
interview, did she explain what she
12
got the $200 for?
13
A
told the Palm Beach police department in
14
her interview that she received her $200 for bringing
15
to the house.
16
Q
You mentioned that there were these three
17
different time periods that
was interviewed: Shortly
18
after the events, at the time of the state grand jury
19
proceedings, and when you met with her, correct?
20
A
Yes.
21
Q
And there were some discrepancies between the
22
different interviews. Can you explain some of those to
23
the grand jury.
24
A
Before we go and get to that, I want to make
25
sure that -- when we discussed what
was told in the
Copy lofez
EFTA00009464

=== Page 18 ===
Page 18
1
car by
, that we learned from
interview with
2
the Palm Beach police department. So I don't know if I
3
said that, but I want to make sure you know that we first
4
learned that
by listening to the
5
interview that was conducted between the Palm Beach police
6
department and
/ not from
-
When I talk later, I
7
just want to make sure you realize that that had not
8
initially come out in
interview, but through the
9
interview with
.
10
So going back. I'm sorry, discrepancies?
11
Q
Yes.
12
A
I met with
last night to discuss some of
13
the discrepancies when looking at what she had talked to
14
detective
about in March of 2005 and what she had
15
testified to in the grand jury in July of 2006. Reading
16
the testimony and listening to the tapes, or reading the.
17
transcript, there were a few discrepancies.
18
One of the first ones we talked about was what
19
had told her about going to Mr. Epstein's house.
20
She tells detective
that she was told about the
21
massage, told about getting $200, but that she was not
22
told that she would have to take her clothes off. She
23
didn't know she would have to perform the massage naked.
24
When I asked her last night that question, she
25
told me that when she got to the house prior to going into
EFTA00009465

=== Page 19 ===
Page 19
1
Mr. Epstein's residence, that
did tell her that she
2
may be asked to take off her clothes. She also did state
3
that
told her she could stay in her bra.
4
So I wanted you to know that there was a
5
discrepancy in what she originally had told detective
6
and what she told me last night. That would be one.
7
The second discrepancy I wanted to touch on with
8
her was going upstairs and taking off her clothing. When
9
she is in that room, she states to detective
that
10
asked her to remove her clothing, and she took off
11
her shirt. Then Mr. Epstein came in the room, shook her
12
hand and told her to take off her clothes. He leaves, he
13
comes back in a towel. He tells her again.
tells
14
detective
in a stern voice, "Mr. Epstein told me to
15
take off my pants." Because she hadn't taken off her
16
pants from the first time that she met him.
17
In her testimony with the grand jury with the
18
state, she tells the grand jury that it was
who
19 asked her to remove her clothing. So last night we went
20 over with her who told her to remove what. She had a very
21
hard time recalling exactly. She knew she had gotten down
22
to her bra and underwear. And then at some point, when
23
we're going through the sexual activity, she actually
24
tells me that her underwear was off when he was
25
Cary lof 13
EFTA00009466

=== Page 20 ===
Page 20
1
Later in the interview, we tell her about what
2
we have in her testimony to the grand jury and her
3
statements made to detective
- And she really is
4
having a difficult time trying to remember who told her to
5
take off her clothes and her pants. As we are walking
6
through the sexual activity, she does recall and states.
7
that it was Mr. Epstein who told her to take off her
8
pants.
9
I guess I'll go to the third discrepancy. Is
10
there anything I left off with that?
11
&
Well, does she report that when the assistant
12
leads -- or the blonde lady leads her upstairs, that the
13
blonde lady also said, "Get undressed," but that
14
didn't get fully undressed?
15
A
That's what she said in her statement to the
16
detective, when she gives her first statement. She tells
17
us again last night that that's what she recalled.
18
&
That the lady said first, "Get undressed," but
19
she doesn't get fully undressed. And when Jeffrey comes
20
back, he said, "Take your pants off. "?
21
A
Yes. And again, like I said, when we started
22
interviewing her and asking her about this, she did have a
23
hard time. But when we were walking through the sexual
24
activity, that's when she recalls who told her to take off
25
her pants.
EFTA00009467

=== Page 21 ===
Page 21
1
And I'll tell you, when we talked about the
2
sexual activity, and it comes out that she wasn't wearing
3
her underwear when
4
,
she does not recall how they came off.
5
She cannot remember removing her underwear. She doesn't
6
remember if Mr. Epstein removed her underwear. She knows
7
her underwear was off, but she cannot tell you exactly at
8
what point her underwear was removed.
9
Q
Let's talk about the third discrepancy.
10
A
The third is the sexual activity, when she was
11
originally interviewed by detective
about the
12
#
When detective
13
comes and sees her again a few weeks later, she does
14
tell her at that time that
15
She also says that to the grand jury, she talks about the
16
17
Last night she told us about
18
.
When we asked her about him
19
and that
had told the police
20
department that she
,
told us last
21
night that she
by Mr. Epstein, but that she
22
thought only her and
knew about this and that she
23
did not want her father to know that
+
24
She didn't want anybody to know, but she especially didn't
25
want her father to know, that that was her business. That
Comp 10f13
EFTA00009468

=== Page 22 ===
Page 22
1
she did not know that
had told anybody, she thought
2
it was only her and
that knew. She was embarrassed
3
and didn't want anybody to know that.
4
Q
Did she become visually upset?
5
A
Yes, she began crying when we asked her about
6
When she realized that we
7
knew about that, she became very upset and concerned about
8
her father. She mentioned that her father has read a lot
9
of the reports in the State of Florida, and has followed
10
the state's case. She was concerned about even telling
11
us, afraid that he would be able to read in our reports
12
about this.
13
We explained to her that the FBI's reporting is
14
a little bit different than the way the state -- those are
15
public records, and ours is part of our case file.
16
Q
In addition to the fact that she had these
17
concerns about her father and she was embarrassed, in your
18
experience of interviewing victims of sexual abuse, is it
19
typical for them to not disclose all of the sexual
20
activity?
21
A
Yes, it's very typical. And young girls, they
22
don't want to talk about it. This is just another case of
23
her not wanting to tell exactly what took place.
24
Q
After that first visit to Mr. Epstein's house,
25
and the interviews with detective
,
did detective
EFTA00009469

=== Page 23 ===
Page 25
1
Q
On April 1, the following day, did
make
2
calls to
3
A
From the Palm Beach police department, they were
4
able to take voice mail messages left by
on
5
phone stating that
could come and work on Saturday
6
around 11:00.
7
Q
I think you mentioned this last time, but in
8
case you didn't, did the Palm Beach police department do
9
trash pulls at Mr. Epstein's house?
10
A
Yes, they did.
11
Q
Was there anything of value related to this
12
series of calls that were recovered?
13
A
Yes. There was a trash pull done in the
14
beginning of April, and in the trash there was a piece of
15
paper that on it had
name,
name, and I
16
believe it was 10:30 listed on the piece of paper.
17
Q
It said
with
on Saturday at 10:30?
18
A
Yes, it did.
19
Q
In addition to the actual recordings of those
20
phone calls and voice mail messages, do you also have
21
telephone records from both
cell phone and
22
cell phone that match up?
23
A
Yes.
24
Q
Just to go back to something that you mentioned.
25
Who actually gave the $300 cash to
at the day she was
Lopy loff3
EFTA00009470

=== Page 24 ===
Page 26
1
at Mr. Epstein's house?
2
A
Mr. Epstein.
3
&
You mentioned a girl named
?
4
A
Yes.
5
Q
Was
also interviewed?
6
A
Yes, she was.
7
Q
Was she asked about going with
to take
8
girls to Mr. Epstein's house?
9
A
Yes.
10
Q
Was she asked who the youngest-looking girl was?
11
A
Yes.
12
&
What did she say?
13
A
She discussed
looking young in her
14
interview with the Palm Beach police department.
15
:
Those are all of my questions
16
for you now. If you could please step outside, I'll
17
see if the grand jurors have any.
18
(Witness excused, and then returned.)
19
BY
:
20
&
Agent
,
we have just a few questions.
21
One relates to the conversation between Mr. Epstein and
22
about his exploits with other girls. Did Mr. Epstein
23
say anything about the age of those girls?
24
A
He said that -- in particular on one case he
25
talked about a young girl that he was in the back seat
EFTA00009471

=== Page 25 ===
Page 23
1
ask
to make what are called controlled calls?
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
Can you explain to the grand jury what a
4
controlled call is?
5
A
A controlled call is where we actually have a
6
listening device, where we have an individual place a call
7
to somebody and we are able to record the other person's
8
voice and the conversation that takes place between the
9
person that we're having make the call and the person that
10
they are calling.
11
Q
Who did detective
ask
to call?
12
A
was asked to call
on the phone.
13
Q
And did she do so?
14
A
Yes, she did.
15
Q
Can you tell the grand jury when the calls were?
16
A
I believe the first call was made towards the
17
end of March, I believe it was March 30.
called
18
at the Olive Garden where
works.
was
19
concerned that
father had found out somehow and
20
that they knew about it. And she refers to him as
21
Jeffrey, but Mr. Epstein.
22
told her that they did not know about
23
Mr. Epstein. Later in the conversation
tells her
24
that Mr. Epstein would like her to come back and work for
25
him, and that maybe she could work for him tomorrow. So
Corpy log 13
EFTA00009472

=== Page 26 ===
Page 24
1
they agreed that there would be a call between
and
2
tomorrow, that
will call
tomorrow.
3
&
Were there calls also made on March 31 of 2006?
4
A
There were two calls made on March 31. The
5
first one she doesn't connect to
The second call
-
6
that was made a short time later,
answers the phone.
7
Again, there is a discussion about
coming to work for
8
Mr. Epstein.
tells
-- one of the comments that
9
is made is, "The more you do, the more you make."
is
10
asking her how much can I make.
11
Again, detective
is there, and
is
12
asking
#
how much can I make.
is telling
13
that she'll have to ask Mr. Epstein that, that she is
14
going to see Mr. Epstein tomorrow and that she'll talk to
15
Mr. Epstein. There is conversation about
and her
16
twin sister possibly coming to Mr. Epstein's house. There
17
is some discussion about her coming to work for
18
Mr. Epstein.
19
Q
Just so it's clear, because there were a lot of
20
shes,
is telling
that
is going to see
21
Epstein the following day?
22
A
Yes.
23
&
And that
is going to set up a schedule
24
with Mr. Epstein for
and her sister to work for him?
25
A
Yes.
EFTA00009473

=== Page 27 ===
Page 27
1
with, and her parents were in the front seat. He told
2
that they were having sex in the back seat -- were
3
doing sexual things in the back seat while he was carrying
4
on a conversation with the parents in the front seat. I
5
guess they were on their way home from a business party.
6
This was one of the stories that he had talked about.
7
Q
But at no time did he provide any specific ages
8
about any of those girls?
9
A
No.
10
Q
What was
age at the time she took
11
to Mr. Epstein's house?
12
A
She was 18.
13
Q
Did Mr. Epstein ask
anything about her age?
14
A
He did. He asked her how old she was, she said
15
she was 18. He asked her what grade she was in, she said
16
she was in the 12th grade. He asked her where she went to
17
school, and she said she went to
18
Q
I know we will be doing a lot more discussion
19
about
later. But could you tell us briefly how
20
was recruited to go to Mr. Epstein's house?
21
A
was at the beach, and two individuals
22
approached her about making money and giving a massage to
23
Mr. Epstein.
24
Q
How old was
when she first went to
25
Mr. Epstein's house?
Copy of 13
EFTA00009474

=== Page 28 ===
Page 28
1
A
Through phone records, we have contact between
2
and
starting at age 17.
3
: Those are all the questions.
4
Thank you.
5
(Witness excused, and then returned.)
6
BY
:
7
Q
The question was, was there any particular
8
evidence to suggest that Mr. Epstein knew that
was
9
under the age of 18?
10
A
I would say through the interviews of the
11
multiple girls that went to Mr. Epstein's house -- the way
12
that having seen
last night, and now she's 16 -- this
13
was two years ago -- that
age and behavior -- and
14
again, is that more circumstantial evidence? As far as
15
concrete evidence, no. But just by her appearance and her
16
mannerisms and how I observed her last night at age 16.
17
Q
And that's consistent with what
said
18
during her statement, correct?
19
A
Yes, it is.
20
MS.
: Any other questions?
21
JUROR: Did she look 18?
22
THE WITNESS: Does
look 18? Not in my
23
opinion, sir.
24
MS.
: All right. Any other questions?
25
Okay, thank you, very much.
EFTA00009475

=== Page 29 ===
Page 29
1
(Witness excused.)
2
3
4
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
5
6
I CERTIFY pages 1 to 28 is a true transcript of
7
my shorthand notes of the testimony of
8
before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm
9
Beach, Florida, on the 27th day of February, 2007.
10
Dated at West Palm Beach, Florida this 18th day
11
of March, 2007.
12
13
14
Philip W. May
15
16
Philip W. May, Court Reporter
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
learn 10413
EFTA00009476

=== Page 30 ===


c1: EFTA00009586
c2: DataSet 7
c3: VOL00007
c4: DataSet 7/VOL00007/IMAGES/0001/EFTA00009586.pdf
c6: pdf
c7: images
c0:
=== Page 1 ===
Transcript
April 24, 2007
FULL SET
OF G)
TRANSCRIPTS-
FOR SCANNING
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=== Page 2 ===
1
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
3
4
5
6
COPY
7
RE: OPERATION LEAP YEAR
8
/
9
10
11
12
TESTIMONY.
13
OF
14
15
16
17
18
Federal Grand Jury 07-103
Federal Building
19
U.S. Courthouse
West Palm Beach, Florida
20
Tuesday, April 24, 2007
21
22 APPEARANCES:
23
Assistant United States Attorney
24
25
Foreperson
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=== Page 3 ===
2
1
The sworn testimony of
was
2
taken before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm
3
Beach Division, Federal Building, U.S. Courthouse,
4
Palm Beach County, State of Florida, on Tuesday,
5
April 24, 2007.
6
Paula E. Angelocci, Certified Court
7
Reporter and Notary Public, State of Florida,
8
Official Reporting Service, LLC, 524 South Andrews
9
Avenue, Suite 302N, Fort Lauderdale, Florida,
10
33301, was authorized to and did report the sworn
11
testimony.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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=== Page 4 ===
3
1
(Witness enters the Grand Jury Room.)
2
THE FOREPERSON: You do solemnly swear
3
that the testimony you give will be the
4
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
5
truth, so help you God?
6
THE WITNESS: I do.
7
THE FOREPERSON: Thank you. Please be
8
seated.
9
EXAMINATION
10
BY
:
11
Q
Good afternoon, Ms.
.
Could you
12
state and spell your name for the record?
13
A
/
14
Q
And where do you currently live?
15
A
I live -- do you want me to give the
16
address?
17
&
Sure.
18
A
West Palm Beach,
19
Florida 33412.
20
Q
Okay. And you are living with your
21
parents now?
22
A
Yes.
23
&
Were you served with a subpoena to
24
appear before the grand jury today?
25
A
Yes.
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=== Page 5 ===
4
1
2
And do you understand that an order was
2
signed by a judge compelling you to appear and
3
answer questions?
4
A
Yes.
5
Q
And that order states that what you tell
6
the grand jury won't be used against unless you
7
perjure yourself?
8
A
Yes.
9
Q
Do you understand that you are under
10
oath, and if you don't tell the truth --
11
A
I can go to jail, yes.
12
Q
Okay. Let's start with where you went
13
to high school.
14
A
15
2
How old are you today?
16
A
Twenty-one.
17
&
And what is your date of birth?
18
A
19
0
What year did you graduate from
20
?
21
A
2004.
22
Q
And where are you currently working?
23
A
I currently am not working.
24
2
But you are
?
25
A
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=== Page 6 ===
5
1
Q
Where will that be?
2
A
Fort Lauderdale, Coral Springs.
3
Q
What type of position will that be?
4
A
.
5
Q
Have you worked since the time that you
6
graduated from high school?
7
A
Uh-huh.
8
&
Can you tell the grand jury what type of
9
jobs you have had?
10
A
I worked at
-
I
11
worked in a club up in Orlando as
as
12
well. I have also worked at a sports bar as a
13
waitress.
14
Q
When you were in high school, where did
15
you work?
16
A
and
17
Q
And do you know Jeffrey Epstein?
18
A
Yes, I do
19
&
Can you tell the grand jury how you
20
first came to meet Mr. Epstein?
21
A
I met Epstein through two acquaintances,
22
and
,
and I met them at a beach resort.
23
They made a proposition to me. Later then I
24
picked them up and they gave me directions to the
25
house and that's where I was formerly introduced
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=== Page 7 ===
6
1
to Mr. Epstein.
2
&.
Okay. And let me just go back over that
3
a little bit. You mentioned that you had two
4
acquaintances,
and
/ and you met them at
5
a beach resort, correct?
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
And you said that they made a
8
proposition to you. What was that exactly?
9
A
had asked me if I wanted to make
10
money and she was working for this guy, Epstein,
11
in Palm Beach. So I told her I was interested and
12
she further went into detail about massaging him,
13
that you would have to take off articles of
14
clothing and there would be touching and fondling
15
involved.
16
Q
How old were you when this happened?
17
A
About 16.
18
Q
And how old was
19
A
Same age.
20
Q
And how did you know
21
A
We went to
together.
22
&
And she was in your same grade in high
23
school?
24
A
Yeah.
25
Q
And you mentioned that
had
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=== Page 8 ===
7
1
previously worked for Epstein or was currently
2
working for Epstein?
3
A
Yes, that's right.
4
Q
So they explained this proposal to you
5
and you said that you would be interested?
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
What happened next?
8
A
Within a couple of days to a week I
9
picked them up and I went to his house to work for
10
him and I was introduced to
/
who is his
11
assistant. She took me upstairs to Epstein's
12
bedroom and that's where the massage took place.
13
I was naked and he tried fondling me and
14
I wouldn't have it, so after the massage he gave
15
me another proposition to bring girls to the house
16
and for every girl that I brought I would make
17
$200.
18
Q
All right. We'll go back over that a
19
little more slowly. I know this is a lot of
20
information. So let's go back to the proposition
21
that
and
made to you.
22
Did they say you would be paid for
23
massaging Mr. Epstein?
24
A
Yes.
25
Q
And how much would you be paid?
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=== Page 9 ===
8
1
A
$200.
2
Q
Now you said that they had told you that
3
you might have to take your clothing off?
4
A
They told me that I was expected to take
5
my clothing off and that there would be fondling.
6
Q
Okay. And what -- did they explain
7
what fondling meant?
8
A
Just that he'd be touching me.
9
Q
Okay. And so you agreed to do that and
10
you went to Mr. Epstein's home?
11
A
Correct.
12
Q
And where was that located?
13
A
Palm Beach, Brillo Way.
14
Q
B-R-I-L-L-O?
15
A
Yes.
16
Q
And when you arrived at the home, you
17
said that you were driving with
and
?
18
A
That is correct.
19
Q
Tell us how you got into the house.
20
A
We went through a gate on the side of
21
the house that led to the back and we just rang
22
the doorbell and
answered the door and we
23
were standing in the kitchen and then
24
brought me upstairs.
25
Q
Okay. Now did you have any -- did
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=== Page 10 ===
9
1
tell you anything about what you would do when you
2
got upstairs?
3
A
No, she never discussed that with me.
4
&
Did she say anything to you about taking
5
your clothes off?
6
A
No, she never discussed that with me.
7
&
Okay. When you arrived upstairs, you
8
said that you went into a bedroom?
9
A
That is correct.
10
2
What was in the bedroom?
11
A
It was a bedroom that had a door that
12
led to then I want to say a bigger more than just
13
a bathroom. It was a bigger room with like a
14
pretty large size walk-in closet, a shower, a
15
steam shower, and then two sinks on the right, and
16
in the middle laid the massage table, and then to
17
the left there was two couches.
18
2
And so the massage table was already set
19
up when you arrived?
20
A
That is correct.
21
Q
Okay. And after
led you up to the
22
bedroom, what did she do?
23
A
She had left and that's when Epstein
24
came in.
25
Q
Okay. And when Mr. Epstein came in,
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=== Page 11 ===
10
1
what was he wearing?
2
A
He was wearing a towel.
3
&
Okay. And nothing else?
4
A
Nothing else.
5
Q
And what did he do?
6
A
He laid on the table and that's when the
7
massage began and later on he -- when he got in, I
8
took off my clothes and I was just wearing my
9
bottoms, and he later tried to touch me and he
10
grabbed my butt, and that's when I had a problem.
11
I told him that I didn't feel comfortable.
12
So later he took the towel off and he
13
was laying on his back and he
14
asking me to
15
and then after that everything
16
was done.
17
&
Okay. So when Mr. Epstein
18
then the massage or whatever was over?
19
A
Yes, it was.
20
Q
And once that happened, what did he do?
21
A
Just got up and dried himself off and
22
then walked me downstairs.
23
Q
And you got dressed as well?
24
A
That's right.
25
2
And when you got back downstairs, what
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=== Page 12 ===
11
1
happened?
2
A
I went back into the kitchen and he
3
pulled
and
aside and then we just left.
4
Of course, I got paid.
5
Q
Okay. And tell us where you got paid,
6
who paid you, and how much you received?
7
A
Epstein paid me. I received 200, but I
8
cannot recall if it was upstairs that he paid me
9
or if he waited until I got back downstairs.
10
Q
Okay. And when he paid you the $200,
11
was it in small bills, large bills?
12
A
Big bills, 100s.
13
Q
Okay. So two 100 dollar bills. And you
14
said that he pulled
and
aside. Do you
15
know what that was about?
16
A
He would never pay them in front of me.
17
He always was funny about that. So I'm sure it
18
was just paying them for bringing me.
19
Q
Okay. And you mentioned that you told
20
Mr. Epstein that you were uncomfortable with him
21
touching you?
22
A
That's correct.
23
Q
And what became of that?
24
A
Later on before I left he had addressed
25
me to not massage him anymore, but asked me if I
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=== Page 13 ===
12
1
could bring girls over and for every girl that I
2
brought to the table he would pay me $200.
3
Q
Okay. So you weren't comfortable with
4
him touching you, so you weren't going to do any
5
more massages?
6
A
No.
7
Q
He wanted you to find other girls?
8
A
That's correct.
9
Q
And he wanted girls that would let him
10
touch them?
11
A
Uh-huh.
12
Q
After that first massage, did you
13
perform any other massages at his house?
14
A
Absolutely not.
15
Q
Did you bring girls?
16
A
That's correct.
17
Q
Tell us how you started to bring girls
18
to Mr. Epstein's house.
19
A
Just girls that I met in high school,
20
acquaintances, people that I just said hi and bye
21
to. A lot of them actually heard about it through
22
a couple of girls that I brought and they were
23
interested.
24
Some of the girls asked me about it.
25
Just girls in school I'd talk to, just get on the
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=== Page 14 ===
13
1
subject. They had no problem with it.
2
Q
Okay. So when you found a girl that you
3
thought would be interested, what exactly would
4
you tell her?
5
A
I asked them if they were interested in
6
making extra money and that I knew an older
7
wealthier man in Palm Beach who liked to have
8
massages and they would get paid $200.
9
The more they did, the more they make,
10
and I would explain to them in detail what was
11
expected of them when they showed up at the house
12
and I also told them that if they are under age
13
just lie about it and tell him that you are 18.
14
&
Let's talk first about what you said
15
that you tell them what was expected of them.
16
A
Yes.
17
Q
First of all, why did you tell them
18
that?
19
A
Because that's what I was told.
20
&
By whom?
21
A
and
22
Q
Okay. And did Jeffrey Epstein ever
23
address you about don't bring girls over here if
24
they don't know what's going to happen?
25
A
Absolutely.
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=== Page 15 ===
14
1
Q
Okay. So all the girls were supposed to
2
know that when they got there they would be
3
undressing?
4
A
They would be undressing. There would
5
be. touching. There would be fondling. He was
6
very big on that. He told me never to bring a
7
girl over unless they knew what was expected.
8
Q
Okay. And did you also tell them that
9
he would
?
10
A
I didn't really talk to them about that.
11
I didn't know if he did it with everybody or it
12
was just with me that he did that.
13
Q
But you told them that they all would
14
have to be partially naked or fully naked?
15
A
Partially to fully naked and there would
16
be touching and fondling.
17
Q
Okay. How many girls do you think you
18
took to Mr. Epstein's house?
19
A
Seven, between seven to ten.
20
Q
Okay. And were there any -- in addition
21
to this rule about the girls had to know what was
22
expected, did Mr. Epstein have any other rules in
23
terms of what the girls looked like or what he
24
liked?
25
A
No.
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=== Page 16 ===
15
1
Q
Okay. Were there girls that you brought
2
that he didn't like?
3
A
There were a few girls he wasn't crazy
4
about. He didn't really like. He didn't favor.
5
,
for instance, 23, he thought she was kind
6
of too old.
7
Q
Okay. So you brought a girl named
8
,
who was 23 years old?
9
A
Yes.
10
&
And you were told that she was too old?
11
A
Yes.
12
&
Did you ever bring her back?
13
A
No.
14
Q
What about any other girls that he
15
didn't like?
16
A
This other girl I went to high school
17
with,
,
she was maybe a year younger, and him
18
and her got
-
I told
19
her in detail what was expected and she, to me,
20
was all for it and then when she got there,
21
decided she didn't want to perform what was
22
necessary. So they got
23
and after that I never really brought her
24
back.
25
&
Okay. And did either Jeffrey Epstein
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16
1
or
say anything to you about what happened
2
with
?
3
A
He had made a comment just about -- I
4
had asked -- he had asked me for someone to come
5
over and work and when I suggested
, he kind of
6
nodded, not really interested. He told me to find
7
somebody else. So I assumed that meant he really
8
didn't care for her.
9
&
Okay. Now the -- you mentioned
10
who was 23. What was the age range of the other
11
girls that you brought to Mr. Epstein's home?
12
A
High school, 16 to 18.
13
Q
Were there any girls who were younger
14
than that?
15
A
Yes.
16
Q
Who was that?
17
A
-
18
Q
And how was she?
19
A
She was 14.
20
Q
Okay. Now you were interviewed by the
21
Palm Beach Police Department?
22
A
That's correct.
23
Q
And during that interview, you told them
24
that there were two ways to make money with
25
Jeffrey Epstein. Can you explain to the grand
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17
1
jury what those two ways are?
2
A
The more you did is the more you make.
3
Basically, the more clothes that come off, the
4
more you let him touch you, the more you just let
5
him have his way with you is the more that you
6
would make, otherwise, you would be demoted down
7
to bringing girls over and just making money that
8
way.
9
Q
And that's what you were doing?
10
A
That's correct.
11
&
Was bringing girls?
12
A
That's correct.
13
2
If you could explain to the grand jury
14
how you would go about making an appointment for a
15
girl to come and give a massage?
16
A
His assistant there would call me either
17
before they got into town or while he was in town
18
and either she would ask me for a particular girl,
19
preferably one that he favored, or if I couldn't
20
get a hold of that girl just bring somebody over
21
to work.
22
I would call the girl. She would okay
23
it. I would call
back, confirm it, set an
24
appointment, and then the next couple of days we'd
25
go.
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18
1
Q
And was
the person that you always
2
made the appointment with?
3
A
Always.
4
Q
Do you remember ever talking to Jeffrey
5
Epstein on the telephone?
6
A
Never. The only time I talked to him
7
was physically in person at his house.
8
Q
Okay.
was really the person that
9
you had to --
10
A
Deal with.
11
Q
Okay. Now you mentioned that sometimes
12
would request a specific girl?
13
A
That's correct.
14
Q
Did she give you any reason why he
15
really liked this girl or just is this girl
16
available? What would happen on those calls?
17
A
If it was a specific girl, she would
18
call me and just ask: Can this girl work? She
19
would never give me a reason. She would never go
20
into detail. It was just: Can she work, yes or
21
no?
22
Q
And
was saying to you can she
23
work?
24
A
I can't recall if those were her exact
25
words. I can't remember if it was: Can she come
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19
1
over and massage or can she work? I don't recall
2
the exact words.
3
Q
Okay. And once you made those
4
appointments then who would normally take you and
5
the girls to the house?
6
A
I would.
7
&
Okay. And you would drive?
8
A
I would drive.
9
&
And were all -- was this always taking
10
place at Mr. Epstein's home?
11
A
Yes.
12
&
On Brillo Way?
13
A
That's correct.
14
Q
When you spoke with
on the
15
telephone, did you -- were all of these
16
conversations about setting up these appointments?
17
A
When I would talk to
?
18
&
Yes.
19
A
Yes. It would be pure business whenever
20
I talked to
21
Q
So you didn't have any sort of friendly
22
relationship?
23
A
No friendly relationship, never
24
socialized unless I was at the house. It wasn't
25
like that at all.
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20
1
Q
Okay. Now when you would bring a new
2
girl over to the house, what would you do?
3
A
Walk up the same way towards the back of
4
the house. They would let us in. I could sit in
5
the kitchen with the girl. I would either wait
6
for
to come in or Jeffrey. Most of the time
7
it was
8
would bring the girl upstairs
9
while I waited downstairs. After the massage, the
10
girl would come downstairs. I would get paid and
11
then we would leave.
12
Q
Tell us how you would get paid when you
13
were the person who brought the girls.
14
A
What do you mean how I would get paid?
15
Q
Who would pay you?
16
A
Jeffrey Epstein would pull me aside
17
whether it be in his, I guess, living room slash
18
office. He would just make sure that when he paid
19
me, it was just me and him, nobody else was
20
around.
21
Q
And how much would you get paid for each
22
girl?
23
A
$200.
24
Q
And again with the two 100 dollar bills?
25
A
Always 100 dollar bills.
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=== Page 22 ===
21
1
Q
Did you ever see the girl who actually
2
did the massages get paid?
3
A
No, I never saw them get paid. He never
4
paid us in front of each other.
5
Q
Okay. Did the girls ever tell you that
6
they did get paid or how much they got paid?
7
A
Most of the time.
8
Q
Okay. And how much money would each
9
girl get paid?
10
A
It ranges.
11
Q
From?
12
A
It ranges from 200 to some got paid 300.
13
Like I said, the more you do, the more you make.
14
There were a couple of girls that got paid 300,
15
400, and then there were a couple of girls that
16
got paid 200 maybe even 100.
17
&
Now you mentioned that usually
18
would take the girl upstairs?
19
A
That's correct.
20
&
Were there ever instances where you took
21
the girl upstairs?
22
A
Very rarely. I think it happened once
23
or twice where
was doing something or she
24
would need me to go upstairs and set up. I would
25
just go upstairs. I would show her where the
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=== Page 23 ===
22
*1
massage table was.
2
I would set it up for them. I would
3
show them where the towels were, put the towels on
4
the massage table and then I would tell them
5
Jeffrey would be in, in a minute and then I would
6
walk back downstairs and wait in the kitchen.
7
&
Okay. And when you were in these other
8
instances where you led the girl upstairs, besides
9
the massage table, did you ever see any other
10
implements that were used during the massage?
11
A
I think there were maybe a few occasions
12
where I would walk upstairs to show the girl or
13
maybe it was even when I first massaged him, there
14
was like a white
on the table or a white
15
16
Q
And can you describe that to the grand
17
jury?
18
A
What it looked like?
19
Q
What it looked like, yes.
20
A
It was like a
.
It was really
21
The
-
It was white. I think
22
the top of it was maybe like pink. It was
23
that's all I remember.
24
Q
Okay. And did any of the girls ever
25
tell you that that
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=== Page 24 ===
23
1
A
Yes.
2
Q
Okay. Now I'm going to run through the
3
names of some girls that you brought just to
4
confirm with the grand jury that you brought them.
5
A
Okay.
6
Q
?
7
A
That's correct.
8
Q
?
9
A
Correct.
10
2
?
11
A
Correct.
12
&
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
?
15
A
Yes.
16
&
?
17
A
Yes.
18
&
And then there is another girl,
19
?
20
A
never, ever, ever worked for
21
Jeffrey. She accompanied me to his house I think
22
once or twice and waited in the kitchen with me,
23
but she never worked for him.
24
Q
Okay. But she was somebody that you
25
brought along with you?
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24
1
A
That is correct.
2
Q
On visits?
3
A
Yes.
4
Q
Okay. In addition to those girls
5
that -- who I just named, you mentioned a woman,
6
,
who is 23?
7
A
Uh-huh.
8
Q
Were there any other girls that you
9
recall bringing to Jeffrey Epstein's house?
10
A
I cannot recall bringing anybody else.
11
Q
Okay. Now one of those girls that we
12
mentioned was
, correct?
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
And you told the police that Jeffrey
15
liked
the best?
16
A
Yes.
17
Q
How old was
?
18
A
She was around the same age as me, maybe
19
a grade lower than me.
20
Q
Okay. So she was under age?
21
A
Yes, correct.
22
Q
And all of those girls who names I read
23
were under age when you brought them there?
24
A
Except for
25
Q
Okay. What did
look like?
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=== Page 26 ===
25
1
A
was
-
She kind of looks
2
but she's
,
maybe. She
3
had a
.
She had
4
5
Q
Was she thin or heavy?
6
A
No. She was maybe -- she had a
7
figure, maybe a little
than me.
8
Q
And how tall do you think she was?
9
A
About 5'5, 5'6.
10
Q
Okay. And you knew that Jeffrey liked
11
because he would specifically request her?
12
A
There was a few occasions that he would
13
specifically ask for her, correct.
14
Q
Okay. And you mentioned that some of
15
the girls told you about the
16
correct?
17
A
Yes.
18
&
Did some of girls tell you what happened
19
inside of that bedroom?
20
A
A few of them did.
21
Q
Let's talk first about
22
A
Okay.
23
Q
Did she tell you what happened?
24
A
All that she really told me was that
25
they got into
He had tried
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=== Page 27 ===
26
1
fondling her. She wasn't having it, and then she
2
only got paid $100 and she felt like she was being
3
ripped off.
4
&
Okay. What about
, did
5
she tell you about what happened?
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
What did she explain to you?
8
A
,
on the way home, had told me she
9
got paid $300, and basically let him
10
and
11
Q
Okay. And she told you those things?
12
A
She told me those things.
13
Q
That he had
and
14
had
?
15
A
That's correct.
16
Q
Okay. And that was -- when did she tell
17
you that?
18
A
Right when we got outside into the
19
truck.
20
Q
As you were driving away?
21
A
That's correct.
22
Q
Do you remember which other girls told
23
you about the
24
A
I can't recall. I know there was
25
another one that said something about the
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=== Page 28 ===
27
1
massager, but I wasn't really paying attention.
2
Q
Now when you first went and gave Mr.
3
Epstein the massage, did he ask for your telephone
4
number after you were finished?
5
A
No,
did.
6
Q
did. And she took down your
7
telephone number?
8
A
She took down my name and my telephone
9
number.
10
Q
After that, how was all contact made
11
with you?
12
A
.
13
Q
Directly to you?
14
A
Directly toward me.
15
Q
Okay. So were there any more instances
16
where she went either through
or
to
17
reach you?
18
A
Absolutely not.
19
Q
Okay. Now when you brought girls over
20
was it the same thing where they would ask for the
21
girl's name and number?
22
A
Yes.
23
Q
And when that happened, would they
24
continue to go through you to set up appointments?
25
A
Most of time they went through me.
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28
1
Actually 99.9 percent of the time they went
2
through me. On a few occasions, the girls that
3
they liked the best, for instance,
, after
4
a while me and
stopped contact with each
5
other and Jeffrey just went strictly through her.
6
Q
Okay. And when an appointment was made
7
directly with the girl, you wouldn't necessarily
8
know about it?
9
A
I would not necessarily know about it.
10
Q
And when the appointment was made
11
directly with the girl then you wouldn't get paid,
12
correct?
13
A
Correct.
14
Q
Did you hear or do you know whether some
15
girls that you brought, brought more girls?
16
A
Yeah, I'm sure of it.
17
Q
Okay. When did you first meet
18
?
Was it that day that you went to give the
19
massage?
20
A
That's correct.
21
Q
And how did you first meet her?
22
A
Just walking in the kitchen and waiting
23
for somebody whether it be Epstein or
.
24
came and introduced herself as
and I
25
learned that she was Epstein's assistant.
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=== Page 30 ===
29
1
Q
And you said that she was the one who
2
took you upstairs on the first day?
3
A
That's correct.
4
Q
And we were talking earlier about how
5
appointments would be made for you to bring
6
additional girls, correct?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
How far in advance would
call you
9
to make appointments?
10
A
It depends. Sometimes she would call me
11
a few days in advance. Jeffrey is going to be in
12
town tomorrow or this weekend, have a couple of
13
girls lined up or have a girl lined up. So it
14
would be anywhere between a couple of days to a
15
weekend.
16
Q
Okay. Did you ever talk with
or
17
did
ever tell you anything about what
18
Jeffrey liked to do with the girls?
19
A
Absolutely not. We never discussed
20
that.
21
Q
Did you ever talk with her about a rumor
22
that you had heard that a girl had intercourse
23
with Jeffrey?
24
A
One day I was talking on the phone with
25
and I addressed her with it, asking her
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30
1
about a rumor I heard of a girl sleeping with
2
Jeffrey, having intercourse, and making $1,000,
3
and she denied it and said that he doesn't do that
4
kind of thing, he just plays with them.
5
&
Okay. So she said that he didn't have
6
intercourse, he just liked to play with the girls?
7
A
That's correct.
8
&
And when you spoke with the police, you
9
said that Jeffrey liked to
10
?
11
A
That's correct.
12
&
What led you to believe that?
13
A
He just did it. I just learned that
14
Epstein just
15
-
It was like the new thing for him, and
16
it just started happening and more and more girls
17
were making comments.
18
Q
So did
know that he was
19
?
20
A
Not that I know of. I didn't say
21
anything and I don't think she had an idea. I
22
think she knew there was playing going on. I
23
don't think she knew of what sort.
24
Q
Okay. So she knew that something sexual
25
was going on; but not necessarily what that
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=== Page 32 ===
31
1
entailed?
2
A
Correct.
3
&
Okay. Did Jeffrey or
or anyone
4
else who worked for Mr. Epstein ever ask you for
5
proof of someone's age?
6
A
Never.
7
Q
Did they ever specifically instruct you
8
that you shouldn't bring girls who were under age
9
to the house?
10
A
Never.
11
Q
And when you spoke with the police
12
department you said that at some point Jeffrey
13
said the younger the better?
14
A
That's correct.
15
Q
And even after that he never said to you
16
but make sure that they are over 18?
17
A
We never discussed age. He never made a
18
comment about age except for
that one time
19
about her being too old. He never told me to go
20
find under aged girls, but at the same time never
21
said make sure they are over 18. It was never
22
discussed.
23
Q
Okay. All right.
24
:
I'm going to ask you to
25
step outside for a minute and I will find out
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32
1
if the grand jury has questions. Thank you
2
very much.
3
(Witness exits the Grand Jury Room.)
4
***
5
(Witness enters the Grand Jury Room.)
6
BY
:
7
&
Ms.
,
I have to remind you that
8
you are still under oath. There were just two
9
follow-up questions. The first one is something
10
that I think you spoke about earlier, but who
11
first asked you to find other girls?
12
A
Who first asked me to first other girls?
13
Q
Yes.
14
A
That would be Epstein.
15
Q
Okay. So Jeffrey asked you himself,
16
Jeffrey Epstein himself asked you?
17
A
Yes.
18
0
Okay. And then the other question was:
19
Are you currently in contact with anyone who works
20
for Mr. Epstein or himself?
21
A
I don't talk to any of the females that
22
I once brought over there. I haven't been in
23
contact with Epstein for years. He tried
24
contacting me a few times.
25
I haven't contacted him back. I refuse
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33
1
to talk to him. I refuse to talk to any of the
2
girls that were involved. However, I did live
3
with one of the girls in Orlando for a couple
4
months to a year. I haven't spoken to her in over
5
a year either.
6
Q
Okay. So after -- and just so the grand
7
jury has a sense here, we are talking about the
8
2004 to 2005 period is when you were bringing
9
girls over?
10
A
That's correct.
11
Q
So since then --
12
A
I don't -- to be honest with you, I
13
think it was more 2003, 2004.
14
2
Okay.
15
A
My junior senior year.
16
Q
Okay. But anyhow it was a couple of
17
years ago?
18
A
Several years ago.
19
&
Okay.
20
:
Is there any follow up
21
on either of those points? Yes,
.
22
A GRAND JUROR: Was it Jeffrey Epstein
23
himself trying to contact you or
?
24
THE WITNESS: I don't know if it was him
25
directly. I know that his number showed up
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=== Page 35 ===
34
1
on my house phone. I'm assuming because
2
was there, I'm assuming that she is the
3
one that has been trying to contact me in the
4
past years. Epstein never talked directly to
5
me on the phone.
6
: Any other follow up?
7
Okay. Thank you,
Thank you for
8
coming.
9
(Witness was excused.)
10
11
12
13
14
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
15
16
I, Paula E. Angelocci, Certified Court
17
Reporter and Notary Public, do certify that the
18
transcript is a true and correct transcription of
19
my stenotype notes of the testimony of
20
, taken before the Federal Grand Jury,
21
West Palm Beach, Florida.
22
Paula Rula & Angelocci I
PAULA ANGELOCCI, CSR #4869
23
Certified Court Reporter
24
25
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=== Page 36 ===


c1: EFTA00009550
c2: DataSet 7
c3: VOL00007
c4: DataSet 7/VOL00007/IMAGES/0001/EFTA00009550.pdf
c6: pdf
c7: images
c0:
=== Page 1 ===
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
IN RE: OPERATION LEAP YEAR
copy
Federal Grand Jury, 07-103
West Palm Beach, Florida
May 8, 2007
APPEARANCES:
, ESQUIRE
Assistant United States Attorney
#
Foreperson
TESTIMONY
OF
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009550

=== Page 2 ===
Page 2
1
The sworn testimony of E.
2
was taken before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm
3
Beach Division, West Palm Beach, Palm Beach County,
4
State of Florida, on the 8th day of May, 2007.
5
Philip W. May, Court Reporter, was authorized to
6
and did report the sworn testimony.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
EFTA00009551

=== Page 3 ===
Page 3
1
(The witness entered the grand jury room.)
2
3
having been duly sworn by the grand jury foreperson,
4
was examined and testified on her oath as follows:
5
EXAMINATION
6
BY
:
7
&
Could you start by reminding us of your name and
8
where you re employed.
9
A
,
,
10
.
I work for the FBI here in West
11
Palm Beach on their violent crimes squad.
12
Q
And you are one of the case agents in Operation
13
Leap Year?
14
A
Yes, I am.
15
Q
Did you recently participate in an interview of
16
?
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
Can you tell us
date of birth?
19
A
was born on
*
20
&
And you spoke with her recently?
21
A
Yes, we did.
22
Q
So she was 18 at the time of the interview?
23
A
Yes, I believe she was.
24
Q
Who is
?
25
A
was identified by the Palm Beach
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009552

=== Page 4 ===
Page 4
1
Police Department as one of the girls who had frequented
2
Mr. Epstein's house.
3
Q
How exactly did the Palm Beach Police Department
4
determine that she was one of those girls?
5
A
When they did their search warrant at
6
Mr. Epstein's residence, some message pads were obtained
7
at his residence, and they had several calls from a girl
8
named
# and phone numbers. So they were able to
9
track back those messages back to
.
10
Q
Did the Palm Beach Police Department try to
11
interview Miss
?
12
A
They did.
13
&
Did she agree to speak with them?
14
A
No. She stated that she loved Jeffrey Epstein,
15
and that she would not say anything positive or negative
16
about what occurred.
17
Q
After the FBI became involved in this
18
investigation, did you try to interview Miss
?
19
A
We did, as well, with no such luck, as well.
20
&
How long ago was it that you first made contact
21
with Miss
?
22
A
It was back in November of '06.
23
Q
Did you try to serve her with a subpoena issued
24
on behalf of this grand jury?
25
A
Yes, we did.
EFTA00009553

=== Page 5 ===
Page 5
1
Q
What happened?
2
A
She refused service of the grand jury subpoena.
3
But she was notified of when her appearance was expected
4
here, and a subpoena was left with her.
5
Q
After that, did she obtain an attorney?
6
A
Yes, she did.
7
Q
Who was that?
8
A
Jim Eisenberg. He's a well-known defense
9
attorney here in West Palm Beach.
10
Q
Who paid for that attorney?
11
A
Mr. Epstein is paying for
attorney.
12
Q
Now once Miss
secured the attorney, did
13
she agree to be interviewed?
14
A
Yes, she did, after she was granted 6001
15
immunity.
She requested immunity.
16
Q
Did the justice department authorize that grant
17
of immunity?
18
A
Yes, they did.
19
Q
After that, did she agree to be interviewed?
20
A
Yeah. It was only after she was given that
21
immunity that she would talk with us.
22
Q
When did the interview take place?
23
A
It took place at the end of April of this year,
24
so just a few weeks ago.
25
Q
Who was present at that interview?
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009554

=== Page 6 ===
Page 6
1
A
Myself; my partner, agent
; the AUSA,
2
her attorney, Jim Eisenberg, and his
3
investigator; as well as
4
&
What did Miss
tell you about Jeffrey
5
Epstein?
6
A
She stated that she had met an individual by the
7
name of
at a party who had asked her if she
8
wanted to make a few bucks by giving a man a massage. She
9
was told that Mr. Epstein preferred them to be topless,
10
and she agreed to go to his house to give him a massage.
11
Q
How old did Miss
tell you she was at that
12
time?
13
A
She stated she was 16 when she first started
14
giving Mr. Epstein massages.
15
&
Based upon your review of the evidence, is that
16
correct?
17
A
No. We have phone records where
18
(phonetic), Mr. Epstein's assistant, is contacting
19
on her cell phone, or using her cell phone to call
20
cell phone starting in April of 2004, which makes
21
15.
22
&
So she said that she was 16, but your evidence
23
shows that she was 15, and she said that she was told she
24
could make a few bucks giving a topless massage?
25
A
Yes.
EFTA00009555

=== Page 7 ===
Page 7
1
Q
What else did Miss
tell you?
2
A
That she went to Mr. Epstein's residence, that
3
took her there the first time, that when she went
4
upstairs she was paid $200 when she first got there by
5
-
Then she goes upstairs, and Mr. Epstein
6
comes in, he disrobes, puts on a towel, lays down on the
7
massage table and she begins to massage him.
8
She tells Epstein that she heard he likes
9
topless massages, and he told her that he did. And she
10
said, "Who wouldn't?" And she ended up taking off her top
11
during the first massage. But
is clear that Mr.
12
Epstein did not at any point touch her during the massage.
13
Q
But does she admit that he
?
14
A
Yes. On the second massage, Mr. Epstein asked
15
her to leave her phone number with
.
Her phone number
16
was left there. On the second massage, she returned the
17
very next day and gave him another massage. This time,
18
Mr. Epstein
.
19
Q
Did Miss
admit that
20
?
21
A
Yes,
And I think her term was that
22
meaning that
23
Q
How long of a period of time did Miss
24
tell you that she performed massages?
25
A
She wasn't able to give us a number of massages,
EFTA00009556

=== Page 8 ===
Page 8
1
but just said that it was a lot, and that she had been
2
giving him massages for a year.
3
Q
You mentioned to the grand jury that Miss
4
said that Mr. Epstein never touched her, correct?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
And she was very adamant about that?
7
A
Yes, she was.
8
Q
Were there other things that she was adamant
9
about in her interview with you?
10
A
Well, she talked about what she would tell the
11
girls that -- and that she told Mr. Epstein that she was
12
18. I'm sorry, I take that back. She was told to say
13
that she was 18, and she told us that she had a fake I.D.
14
showing that she was 18.
15
So she passed that information along to the
16
other girls when she brought -- eventually she brought
17
other girls to perform massages, and that was one of the
18
things that she told -- she told us first that she brought
19
18- to 20-year old girls. And then she stated that if the
20
girls lied, and they were underage, she told them that
21
they needed to tell Epstein that they were 18.
22
Q
Have you been able to identify some of the girls
23
that Miss
brought to Mr. Epstein's home?
24
A
Yes.
25
Q
Were any of those girls over 18?
EFTA00009557

=== Page 9 ===
Page 9
1
A
No, not that we found so far.
2
&
Have any of the girls told investigators about
3
what Mr. Epstein knew about their ages?
4
A
I'm sorry, say that again.
5
Q
Have any of the girls who came through
6
been interviewed about what Mr. Epstein knew about
7
their ages?
8
A
We did interview them regarding that, and I'm
9
not sure if he asked them. They were all told to say they
10
were 18, but not on every occasion would Mr. Epstein
11
inquire about their age.
12
Q
Do you want to check your records on that?
13
A
Yes, could I do that?
14
Q
Yes, please do.
15
A
I can tell you that one of the girls that she
16
brought -- this girl told Mr. Epstein that she was in high
17
school, and actually told him her true age, which was
18
under 18.
19
Q
So what
told you about, that wasn't
20
really the case?
21
A
No, that wasn't. Sorry.
22
Q
That's all right, I just wanted to make sure
23
it's clear.
24
So Miss
told you that she had been told
25
to say she was 18, and she also told you that she had a
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009558

=== Page 10 ===
Page 10
1
fake I.D.?
2
A
Yes.
3
&
Did she ever say that Mr. Epstein either asked
4
for her age or asked to see her I.D.?
5
A
No, the topic never came up.
6
&
Did you also ask her about how appointments were
7
made?
8
A
Yes. She was very clear in the fact that
9
would call her to arrange the appointments, but
10
that
would call her once Jeffrey was in town.
11
Q
So she was adamant that the calls only happened
12
when she was already here?
13
A
Yes.
14
&
Were you made aware that Epstein's counsel was
15
informed that he was being investigated for traveling to
16
engage in prostitution, which means that the appointments
17
would have been made before the traveling?
18
A
Yes.
19
0
Was there anything else, besides the issue of
20
age and the issue of when the appointments were made, that
21
sounded coached or that she was especially adamant about?
22
A
No, I wouldn't say coached. I mean, we talked
23
about the preferences that Jeffrey discussed, as far as
24
which girls he would like
to bring.
25
Once
started giving massages to Epstein,
EFTA00009559

=== Page 11 ===
Page 11
1
told us that he liked different faces, so he would
2
ask her to bring other girls. We asked her if he ever
3
gave any preferences of what he preferred, and her
4
response was that Epstein liked girls like her, which is
5
thin and blond and attractive.
6
Q
And how old was she at the time?
7
A
She was 15.
8
Q
So thin, blonde, attractive and --
9
A
Young, girls like her. I guess we asked if she
10
ever made a mistake, or ever brought somebody that Mr.
11
Epstein didn't take to. She said that she had screwed up
12
and that she had brought a black girl to Mr. Epstein, and
13
that Epstein was not interested in black girls. But he
14
did pay her, and said that he wasn't a racist. He paid
15
her the $200 for her time, but did not want her to perform
16
a massage for him.
17
Q
And he didn't allow that girl to perform a
18
massage?
19
A
No.
20
Q
Was there anything else that Miss
talked
21
about in the interview that you want to share with the
22
grand jury?
23
A
I did ask her at the end of the interview if she
24
was in love with Mr. Epstein. She looked into the camera
25
and said that she loved him like a friend. But then she
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009560

=== Page 12 ===
Page 12
1
kind of looked into the camera and gave a wink and a smile
2
and said, "But with your money, I'd marry you any time,
3
Jeffrey."
4
&
Did she also say that she considered him to be
5
an "awesome guy"?
6
A
Several times she referred to him as an "awesome
7
guy". She said that the girls begged her to come and that
8
the girls didn't have a complaint, and the girls would
9
share with her everything that happened after the massage,
10
and that Jeffrey never touched any of the girls. But as I
11
informed you, we did interview some of the girls that she
12
took, and he has touched them.
13
Q
In preparation for your testimony today, did you
14
also speak with someone who is considered to be an expert
15
in these cases?
16
A
Yes.
17
Q
And what is that person's name?
18
A
.
19
Q
Has Mr.
been qualified to testify as an
20
expert in federal and state courts in cases that involve
21
what he calls "compliant victims"?
22
A
Yes.
23
Q
What does he mean by the term "compliant
24
victims"?
25
A
A compliant victim is when a victim is not
EFTA00009561

=== Page 13 ===
Page 13
1
necessarily forced into the conduct that the offender
2
wants them to engage into, that they actually consent to
3
that kind of activity.
4
Q
So that would include minors who are subjected
5
to sexual activity but weren't necessarily kidnapped or
6
forced at gunpoint, or something like that?
7
A
Exactly.
8
Q
Did he discuss with you the difficulties that
9
exist when you interview those types of victims?
10
A
Yes. He stated that a compliant victim is often
11
times embarrassed that they went along with the behavior.
12
They are also likely to deny the behavior, especially when
13
being interviewed by investigators, that they'll deny it
14
or they' 11 minimize it. Sometimes it takes two, three or
15
multiple interviews to get compliant victims to either
16
trust their interviewer or realize that their interviewer
17
is not going to be judgemental.
18
Q
In this case, have you found that to be the case
19
with some of the interviews?
20
A
Yes, I have.
21
Q
In addition to being embarrassed, sometimes
22
these victims feel guilty about the fact that they were
23
involved in this type of activity?
24
A
Oh, yes.
25
Q
Does Mr.
also have expertise in sexual
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009562

=== Page 14 ===
Page 14
1
preference of offenders?
2
A
Yes, he does.
3
Q
Did he explain why an offender would select the
4
types of victims that are involved in this case, girls
5
between 14 and 17-years-old?
6
A
This type of offender, the sexual preference he
7
has is for post-pubescent females that are physically
8
developed but not necessarily mentally matured. The girls
9
ranging in this age are sometimes inexperienced, they are
10
possibly naive, not as worldly.
11
An offender of this type could also maybe not
12
feel sexually adequate or feel competent dealing with his
13
own age group. So knowing that these girls are less
14
experienced, may focus on them as well.
15
Q
In addition to their emotional immaturity, did
16
Mr.
talk about whether or not younger girls are
17
easier to manipulate than grown women?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
Did he talk to you about "grooming"?
20
A
Yeah. That's what an offender will use with a
21
compliant victim. He told us that grooming is a technique
22
where you gain the cooperation of those victims by
23
focusing on their interests and playing up to those
24
interests. It's a type of seduction, he called it. That
25
was his words for it. And we actually see this in this
EFTA00009563

=== Page 15 ===
Page 15
1
case.
2
&
Can you give us an example of some of the types
3
of grooming that Mr. Epstein used?
4
A
With one of the girls we're going to talk about
5
today,
,
it's very apparent interviewing her how
6
Epstein groomed her. She only went to three or four
7
massages at this time, that she's admitted to. We feel
8
that due to her phone conversations, the multiple calls,
9
that there may be more there. At this point she has
10
stated to us that she has performed three or four massages
11
for Mr. Epstein.
12
What he did is when she first went there he
13
played upon -- she was very shy, and he would play upon
14
that shyness. He told her that she was pretty. He asked
15
her to remove her clothing, and she would not. So he kind
16
of kidded around with her shyness and complimented her,
17
showed interest in her, talked about her boyfriend and
18
different interests she had.
19
At the end of that interview, because she did
20
not take off her clothes, he tells her that if she's
21
willing to do more, she will make more. He also tells her
22
that he would pay her if she would bring other girls. As
23
the massages increased, you can see that the next time she
24
comes he plays again to that shyness, but he gets a little
25
bit more -- I guess he sees that it's not working. This
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009564

=== Page 16 ===
Page 16
1
time she does comply and takes off her -- he asked her to
2
disrobe on the second massage. She takes off her blouse,
3
but she refuses to take off the bra after Mr. Epstein
4
asked her to.
5
So you can see that he tries through showing
6
interest. And then he actually -- when he sees that this
7
isn't working, he takes a more authoritative role with her
8
in the last massage. She said that throughout all of
9
these massages he was very nice, and then at the end he
10
was much more frustrated and irritated. She does get down
11
to her bra and panties on that one, he's just much
12
more authoritative.
13
So he started with the grooming process, tried
14
to get her interest, tried to use that to get her to
15
comply with removing her clothes. But as often happens,
16
at the end of this, he took over and was much more
17
forceful with his requests.
18
Q
Have other girls described that same situation
19
where every time they went back, he tried to push it one
20
step further and one step further?
21
A
Yes. Several of the girls have said that he
22
would always push for more and more.
23
Q
Did Mr.
explain why it is that a
24
compliant child victim cannot legally consent to the
25
sexual conduct?
EFTA00009565

=== Page 17 ===
Page 17
1
A
Yeah. He stated that -- you know, we talked
2
about how the law protects children, and stated that we
3
hold adults accountable. When it comes to adolescents,
4
they go through normal tendencies that mature offenders
5
may try to take advantage of. But the law is in place for
6
that reason, to protect -- in the federal law, to protect
7
those individuals under the age of 18.
8
Q
And that's because of the different maturity
9
levels of the --
10
A
The offender versus the victims, exactly.
11
Q
Did you put together the photographs of the
12
defendants in this case?
13
A
Yes, I did.
14
Q
Are these photographs of the four human
15
defendants who are named in the proposed indictment?
16
A
Yes.
17
Q
With their names underneath them?
18
A
Yes.
19
Q
Agent, who is in the top left-hand corner?
20
A
That's Jeffrey Epstein.
21
Q
When was this photograph taken?
22
A
Recently. There was an article that just came
23
out regarding Mr. Epstein and his connection, or his
24
personal relationship with Prince Andrew, and that was a
25
picture that was in that article.
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009566

=== Page 18 ===
Page 18
1
Q
Who is in the top right-hand corner?
2
A
That's
3
Q
Again, this is a relatively recent photograph?
4
A
Yes, that's his personal assistant.
5
Q
And the bottom left-hand corner?
6
A
Again, that is one of Mr. Epstein's personal
7
assistants, that's
(phonetic).
8
Q
Has Miss
since gotten married?
9
A
Yes, her name now is
10
Q
And the bottom right-hand corner?
11
A
That is
She is, again, a
12
personal assistant to Mr. Epstein. There has been some
13
talk that she is also romantically -- or I should say
14
sexually involved with Mr. Epstein.
15
Q
How old are the defendants?
16
A
Jeffrey is in his mid-fifties, and the three
17
girls are in their early twenties.
18
Q
Do you have a copy of the draft indictment in
19
front of you?
20
A
Yes, I do.
21
Q
You mentioned when we were looking at the
22
photographs that the three females work as personal
23
assistants for Mr. Epstein, is that correct?
24
A
Yes.
25
Q
So he is their employer?
EFTA00009567

=== Page 19 ===
Page 19
1
A
Yes.
2
Q
Are you familiar with the property located at
3
358 El Brillo Way in Palm Beach?
4
A
That's Mr. Epstein residence.
5
Q
And he owns that residence?
6
A
Yes, he does.
7
Q
Are you familiar with Defendant J.E.G.E., Inc.?
8
A
Yes. J.E.G.E., Inc. is owned by Jeffrey
9
Epstein. He is the president, the owner, the sole
10
director. It's a business that is solely used for the
11
activities of one of Mr. Epstein's airplanes, which is his
12
Boeing 727. Its tail number is N908JE.
13
Q
And you mentioned that he is the president and
14
the sole director. Is he also the sole shareholder?
15
A
Yes, he is.
16
Q
Are you familiar with Hyperion Air, Inc. ?
17
A
Yes. Hyperion Air, Inc. is also a business
18
owned by Mr. Epstein. He is also the president, the
19
director and the sole shareholder of that company as well.
20
That company solely does business with his other aircraft,
21
which is a Gulf Stream G-1159B. It bears a tail number
22
N909JE.
23
Q
Is that a smaller aircraft than the Boeing?
24
A
Yes.
25
Q
Just to briefly remind the grand jury about
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009568

=== Page 20 ===
Page 20
1
where the evidence has been collected in this case, was
2
the start of your investigation information that you
3
received from the Palm Beach Police Department?
4
A
Yes, it was.
5
&
And that included evidence seized during a
6
search of Mr. Epstein's home at El Brillo Way?
7
A
Yes.
8
Q
Also controlled calls that the Palm Beach Police
9
Department placed?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
And interviews of girls and other people by the
12
Palm Beach Police Department?
13
A
Yes, as well as trash pulls that the Palm Beach
14
Police Department conducted on Mr. Epstein's residence.
15
Q
Then when the FBI became involved, the FBI did
16
additional interviews of girls and of recruiters?
17
A
Yes.
18
Q
They obtained phone records?
19
A
Yes, we have.
20
&
And records of payments?
21
A
Yes.
22
Q
Did this grand jury also subpoena travel
23
records?
24
A
Yes.
25
Q
Including the flight manifests of the planes
EFTA00009569

=== Page 21 ===
Page 21
1
owned by Hyperion and J.E.G.E.?
2
A
Yes.
3
Q
Did you also get corporate documents related to
4
those two planes?
5
A
Yes, we have.
6
Q
Once you had obtained all of this information,
7
did the FBI analyze the data, specifically the call
8
information and the flight information to put together a
9
pattern of activity by the defendants?
10
A
Yes, we did.
11
Q
So you have a series of phone calls coming from
12
these three assistants who were on the board, the two
13
girls who have been identified through this investigation?
14
A
Yes.
15
Q
When you spoke with those girls, did any of them
16
tell you that they had developed some sort of a personal
17
relationship with the assistants so that they were just
18
chatting over the telephone?
19
A
No, not at all.
20
Q
All of them said what about the phone calls?
21
A
Said that the phone calls were made to set up
22
appointments for Mr. Epstein.
23
Q
And the girls referred to it as appointments to
24
work, is that right?
25
A
Yes, they were appointments to work. There is
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009570

=== Page 22 ===
Page 22
1
one exception,
.
We're going to talk about her
2
probably next week. She did say on one or two occasions
3
that
had called her when she had gone out
4
to California on a trip, I believe. But that is the only
5
time that that was ever mentioned. In fact, we asked, and
6
those phone calls were made for the purpose of setting up
7
appointments for Mr. Epstein.
8
Q
Is the investigation continuing?
9
A
Yes, it is.
10
Q
Are you still trying to locate and interview
11
more girls?
12
A
Yes.
13
&
Let's turn to the specific evidence reporting
14
the overt acts and offenses relating to Jane Doe's 1
15
through 5. I know that every member of the grand jury has
16
a copy of the draft indictment before them, and also a
17
chart.
18
Do you have a copy of that chart as well?
19
A
I do.
20
Q
Do you have photographs of the five girls that
21
we are going to talk about today?
22
A
Yes.
23
&
And these are photographs of the people that we
24
are calling Jane Doe's 1 through 5?
25
A
Yes.
EFTA00009571

=== Page 23 ===
Page 23
1
Q
And Jane Doe Number 1, you have previously
2
testified about her?
3
A
Yes, I have, that's
-
4
Q
Jane Doe Number 2?
5
A
That is
6
Q
Jane Doe Number 3?
7
A
That is
-
8
Q
Jane Doe Number 4?
9
A
-
10
Q
And Jane Doe Number 5?
11
A
That is
.
12
JUROR: The purpose of Epstein's business with
13
his planes, did he transport?
14
THE WITNESS: To travel around.
15
JUROR: So it wasn't like a business of
16
transporting other people?
17
THE WITNESS: He flew other guests, sometimes
18
unaccompanied, sometimes accompanied.
19
JUROR:
,
and
, do you have
20
any evidence that they started young, like the rest
21
of the recruits?
22
THE WITNESS: We have evidence that they are his
23
personal assistants employed by him, not that it was
24
anything like what we were discussing.
25
JUROR: There was an allegation that was made
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009572

=== Page 24 ===
Page 24
1
earlier, back in February, during one of these
2
discussions, about a specific act that was performed.
3
Can I ask about that? We were told back in February
4
that one of the girls when interviewed had alleged
5
rape, and I hadn't heard about that allegation
6
recently.
7
THE WITNESS: That's probably Jane Doe Number 6.
8
We're going to talk about her, that he forcibly put
9
her on the table and
-
Yeah, she will
10
be coming up. We're going to do her probably next
11
week. She'll be the first one we'll talk about.
12
BY MS.
:
13
&
So turning to Jane Doe Number 1,
You
14
testified about her earlier before this grand jury,
15
correct?
16
A
Yes, I did.
17
Q
And she also testified before this grand jury,
18
correct?
19
A
Yes.
20
Q
Can you remind us of her date of birth?
21
A
She was born on
22
Q
Could you briefly refresh the grand jury's
23
recollection of how she was recruited?
24
A
She was approached on a beach by
and
25
(phonetic). They approached her on a beach
EFTA00009573

=== Page 25 ===
Page 25
1
and asked her if she wanted to perform massages for
2
Mr. Epstein and make some money.
3
Q
From the review of the phone records that you
4
have received, were you able to identify a telephone
5
number associated with
6
A
Yes.
7
Q
In fact, has
been interviewed?
8
A
Yes, he has.
9
Q
And has he admitted to being a recruiter for Mr.
10
Epstein?
11
A
Yes, recruiter and driver.
12
Q
If you could take a look at Overt Act Number 2,
13
which appears on page five. That states, "On or about
14
March 12, 2004, defendants Jeffrey Epstein and
15
caused Jane Doe Number 1 to travel to 358 Brillo Way of
16
Palm Beach, Florida."
17
Can you tell us what evidence you have regarding
18
that?
19
A
We have reviewed phone records for
and
20
that indicate the calls took place, as well as phone
21
records for
and
and calls that took
22
place on or about those dates. We've also looked at a
23
flight manifest, and were able to show that Mr. Epstein
24
arrived the day before, on the 11th. We also have
25
statement where she describes the sexual activity that
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009574

=== Page 26 ===
Page 26
1
took place.
2
Q
On that date, March 12 of 2004,
described
3
going to Mr. Epstein's house and performing a sexual
4
massage?
5
A
Yes, on or about that day.
6
Q
On or about that date, what did
state
7
about being paid?
8
A
She was paid $200.
9
Q
And that relates to Overt Act Number 3?
10
A
Yes.
11
Q
And she stated that Mr. Epstein is the person
12
who gave her that?
13
A
She told us that in her statement.
14
Q
If you could take a look at Overt Act Number 95,
15
which is on page 17. On or about February 6, 2005,
16
Epstein had Jane Doe Number 1 to make one or more
17
telephone calls to Jane Doe Number 2.
18
First of all, who is Jane Doe Number 2?
19
A
That would be
, our youngest victim.
20
Q
Can you tell us what evidence you have related
21
to that overt act?
22
A
We have the girl's statements that calls were
23
made. We also reviewed the phone records that indicated
24
that there was telephonic contact between the numbers
25
belonging to
and
.
EFTA00009575

=== Page 27 ===
Page 27
1
Q
And in the statement of both girls, did they
2
describe that
is the person who called
3
looking for someone to come and work at Mr. Epstein's
4
house?
5
A
Yes.
6
Q
Looking at Overt Act Number 96. On or about
7
February 6, 2005, Epstein caused Jane Doe Number 1 to
8
transport Jane Doe Number 2 to 358 El Brillo Way.
9
What is the evidence related to that?
10
A
Again, the statements of
and
support
11
that as further evidence, and also reviewing the phone
12
records they indicate that there was telephonic contact
13
between
and
and
and
-
14
Q
Overt Act Number 97, on or about February 6,
15
2005, Epstein made a payment of $300 to Jane Doe Number 2
16
and a payment of $200 to Jane Doe Number 1.
17
What was the evidence of that?
18
A
Both
and
stated in their statements
19
that
was paid $300, and
was paid $200 for
20
bringing
-
21
Q
Did
explain why she was paid $300?
22
A
Yes, she was paid $300 because she performed her
23
massage.
Mr. Epstein
and
a
24
on
25
Q
After this date, after February 6, 2005, was
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009576

=== Page 28 ===
Page 28
1
$300 found in
's purse when it was searched at her
2
school?
3
A
Yes, it was, by a school administrator.
4
Q
If you could look at Overt Act Number 117, which
5
is on page 19, and that states that on or about March 30,
6
2005,
caused one or more calls to be made to a
7
telephone used by Jane Doe Number 1.
8
What evidence do you have related to that?
9
A
We reviewed the phone records of
and
10
that indicate this.
11
0
And Overt Act 120, on or about March 31,
12
caused one or more calls to be made to a telephone used by
13
Jane Doe Number 1.
14
A
Again, we reviewed the phone records that
15
indicated there was telephonic contact between the numbers
16
belonging to
and
.
17
Q
Then we have Overt Act Number 122, which is also
18
March 31, that Epstein and
caused Jane Doe Number 1
19
to make a call to a telephone used by Jane Doe Number 2.
20
What evidence do you have related to that?
21
A
We have phone records that we have reviewed
22
belonging to
and
#
In this case, we also have a
23
voice mail that was provided to us by the Palm Beach
24
Police Department, a voice mail of
leaving a voice
25
mail message on
phone.
EFTA00009577

=== Page 29 ===
Page 29
1
Q
And Overt Act Number 123 refers to April 1st.
2
What evidence do you have related to that?
3
A
We have reviewed the phone records of
and
4
that indicate telephonic contact was made on this
5
day. We also again have another recorded voice mail by
6
,
left on
phone.
7
Q
These later calls, the March-April calls, are
8
those the controlled calls that the Palm Beach Police
9
Department was involved in?
10
A
There was controlled calls placed to
11
cell phone and to
place of work by
, under the
12
supervision of the Palm Beach Police Department.
13
Q
And the voice mail message that you referred to
14
of
calling
,
what information was
leaving
15
in that voice mail message?
16
A
was asking for
to get back in touch,
17
that she had set up an appointment for
at Epstein's
18
house on the following day, on that Saturday at around
19
10:30 or 11:00.
20
Q
In addition to the phone records, was there
21
anything that the Palm Beach Police Department found that
22
also confirmed that this appointment actually was made.
23
A
As I mentioned earlier, the Palm Beach Police
24
Department was doing trash pulls on Mr. Epstein's
25
residence. In there, there were two messages or notes in
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009578

=== Page 30 ===
Page 30
1
there on Epstein's personalized stationary. On it it
2
said, "
with
on Saturday at 10:30, and
on
3
Saturday with
at 10:30. II That's the exact message on
4
the two notes that were found in his trash when they
5
retrieved it on April 8.
6
Q
If I could direct your attention to Count Number
7
Five, which appears on page 26. That is the charge of
8
enticement of a minor, referring to Jane Doe Number 1, and
9
Mr. Epstein and
are charged.
10
I know that you talked about the telephone
11
traffic. The calls between
and
, did
12
they fall within that March 7 through March 11 time
13
period?
14
A
A review of their telephone records do indicate
15
that there were phone calls made during that time.
16
&
And Jane Doe Number 1 actually went to Mr.
17
Epstein's home?
18
A
Yes, and performed a massage for him in the
19
nude.
20
Q
And she was paid for that?
21
A
Yes, she was paid $200.
22
Q
And he
C, , correct?
23
A
Yes, he did. I would like to include that
24
took
upstairs for that massage, and she also
25
set up the massage table and arranged the oil and lotions
EFTA00009579

=== Page 31 ===
Page 31
1
for
to do that massage.
2
Q
And also, just so it's clear, how old was
3
at that time?
4
A
She was 17.
5
:
Are there any questions about
6
either how that evidence was presented or about the
7
charges related to Jane Doe Number 1? Seeing no
8
questions, we'll turn to Jane Doe Number 2.
9
BY
:
10
Q
You previously mentioned that that was
?
11
A
Yes.
12
Q
Let's turn to Count Number Six, which is on page
13
26, which is the enticement of
If you could tell
14
the grand jury about the evidence related to that.
15
A
date of birth is
16
Q
So during this period of February 5, 2005 to the
17
6th, how old was she?
18
A
She was 14.
19
Q
Can you remind the grand jury about the evidence
20
related to the enticement of
.
21
A
As we stated earlier, we talked about the
22
telephone calls. We have shown that the facility of
23
interstate commerce was used by the telephone calls made
24
by their cell phones. We examined specifically
25
,
and
.
Those calls were made to
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009580

=== Page 32 ===
Page 32
1
set up and arrange appointments for Mr. Epstein to have
2
his massages.
3
Pertaining to
, during the massage that
4
occurred on those dates, February 6, in particular, I
5
think I have discussed with you before what occurred on
6
that, that he
-- and that was his term for
7
it -- and that he
.
8
He did
during that massage, and she
9
10
.
She was paid $300, and we know that she was 14
11
at the time.
12
&
If we could turn to Count Number 43, which
13
appears on page 31. Count 43 is one of the travel counts.
14
If you could tell the grand jury, did a trip occur on
15
March 31, 2005?
16
A
Yes, we have flight records that indicate a
17
flight occurred on that date.
18
Q
What type of plane was used?
19
A
I'm going to refer to the J.E.G.E., Incorporated
20
aircraft as just the Boeing 727. If we talk about the
21
Hyperion Air, Incorporated aircraft, which is the Gulf
22
Stream, I will just say the Gulf Stream. So on that date
23
he did travel on his Boeing 727, on 3-31.
24
Q
And Mr. Epstein was aboard the plane on that
25
day?
EFTA00009581

=== Page 33 ===
Page 33
1
A
Yes, he was.
2
Q
With respect to the March 31st trip, was there
3
evidence of him setting up the appointment with
prior
4
to that trip?
5
A
We do have telephonic contact between
and
6
as well as
and
on the day before
7
and the day of travel.
8
Q
And even though that appointment was never kept,
9
that
never went to that appointment, you have the
10
notes that were retrieved from the garbage that showed
11
that Mr. Epstein was expecting
to show up for that
12
appointment?
13
A
Yes.
14
Q
Anything else with respect to that particular
15
count?
16
A
We also have the controlled calls and the voice
17
mails.
18
Q
Turning to Count Number 60, which appears on
19
page 34, that is the attempted enticement of
20
during the period of March 30 to April 1.
21
Again, at that point,
was how old?
22
A
She was 14.
23
Q
And we had talked about the telephone calls that
24
were used. One of the things that is relevant to this
25
particular count was that in addition to the fact that
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009582

=== Page 34 ===
Page 34
1
was 14, did you interview a girl who went with
2
when she went to Mr. Epstein's house back in
3
February?
4
A
Yes, we did, that would be
5
Q
And
was interviewed?
6
A
Yes, she was interviewed by the Palm Beach
7
Police Department.
8
Q
What did
say about
appearance?
9
A
That she was the youngest looking girl that
10
came.
11
Q
When you talked with
, did
talk about
12
girls that Mr. Epstein liked in particular?
13
A
Yes.
14
&
And was
one of those girls?
15
A
Yes, she was one of his preferences.
also
16
told us that Mr. Epstein said to her on one occasion, "The
17
younger, the better."
18
Q
And there was never any attempt to get
19
I.D. or to confirm her actual age?
20
A
No.
21
Q
As we discussed before,
never actually went
22
to that point, right, so that is just an attempt?
23
A
Yes.
24
:
Are there any questions from the
25
grand jury? Seeing no questions, we'll see you next
EFTA00009583

=== Page 35 ===
Page 35
1
week. Thank you.
2
(Witness excused.)
3
4
5
6
7
8
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
9
10
I CERTIFY pages 1 to 35 is a true transcript of
11
my shorthand notes of the testimony of
12
,
before the Federal Grand Jury, West Palm
13
Beach, Florida, on the 8th day of May, 2007.
14
Dated at West Palm Beach, Florida this 23rd day
15
of May, 2007.
16
17
18
Philip W. May
19
20
Philip W. May, Court Reporter
21
22
23
24
25
Copy 1 of 13
EFTA00009584

=== Page 36 ===


